Bismarck Intern'd

[kclcmdr]

Here's my first attempt at AH...

During Operation "Rheinübung", The last salvo from the Bismarck against the two shadowing British Cruisers, HMS Suffolk and Norfolk, Bismarck's forward radar had malfunctioned as a result of the recoil from her heavy guns firing during this skirmish, and Lütjens was obliged to order Prinz Eugen to move ahead of Bismarck in order to provide the squadron with forward radar coverage. This decision later confused the converging British forces as to the identity of each German ship, their silhouettes being similar...

As the HMS Hood & Prince Of Wales mistaken the Prinz Eugen as the Bismarck, and fires their first Salvo, instead of a near miss in OTL ...,
the Hood & Prince of Wales' combined salvos smashes the Prinz Eugen in both the Aft & Fore Turrets, making her a floating wreck and now floundering in the Denmark Straits...

As the three remaining warships retrain their gun turrets at each other and fire salvos after salvos at each other with the wreck'd Prinz Eugen capsizes into the Atlantic, the HMS Hood is blown to pieces and sinks immediately and the two remaining warships from both surviving warships retrain their gun turrets at each other...

The Prince of Wales is finally badly damaged and force to retreat out of the reaching salvos of the Bismarck but the surviving German Battleship is likewise hit by the last salvo of the PoW and instead of just one oil bunker wreck and leaking fuel, two of Bismarck's fuel bunkers were penetrated and leaking a massive trail of bunker oil...

Captain Lindemann, commander of the mighty Bismarck contemplates their fate ...
(Admiral Günther Lütjens had taken a steel splinter into his head when near hits by the last salvo from H.M.S Hood & was taken down to their medical room for surgery ...)

As he sees the report that they don't have enough fuel to even reach halfway to their occupied German Naval base at Brest ...

He decides that the only way to save his crew and prevent his ship's demise & or possibly capture by the Royal Navy is to find a neutral port...

He maneuver his crippled warship towards the harbour of New York City for internment...

What would the reaction be of the U.S. Navy, President Roosevelt and the American public as they see the crippled German Battleship Bismarck heaving into N.Y.C. harbor and its' German Captain asking for his warship to be intern and to render medical aid for her wounded...

What would the reaction be of the Royal Navy, Prime Minister Churchill and the British public as they are deny the chance to sink the very warship that sank the HMS Hood??

What would Hitler's response and his Admirals as they find out that their finest warships

; the Prinz Eugen sunk, the Bismarck wounded and intern'd in US Waters;

be when they finally get a diplomatic note from the American Embassy that their Battleship has been intern in US Waters at NYC Harbor while British Taskforce H waits one hundred miles off NYC impotently ...

 

[Fearless Leader]

I know range was a serious issue with the Bismark even in OTL, would they have enough range to reach NYC in this scenario? You might need to fiddle with this a bit. I also highly doubt that given a different set of circumstances, the Bismarck would get a "golden BB" hit on the Hood like in OTL.

I don't see why the US wouldn't intern the Bismarck and her crew. I also don't see why the British would be overly outraged at this, even though the Bismark is still afloat, she's out of the war and thereby as good as sunk.

Hitler might be a bit more tentative to send out future surface raiders in TTL but I doubt he'd scrap the surface fleet completely at this stage in the game.

As for the US having the war come a bit closer to home might edge her closer to war in TTL.

I had initially thought that the Bismarck might be repaired and pressed into service by the USN but given the logistical problems involved (refits, ammunition etc.) I think she'd just languish and eventually be broken up for scrap towards the end of the war.

 

[David S Poepoe]

I would think it would easier for the Bismarck to at least reach a port in Maine or even Boston at least rather than attempt to make NYC.

 

[David Floyd]

Any chance Hitler declares war over this?

Or alternatively, any chance Hitler orders a U-boat attack against a major US warship in retaliation?

 

[Markus]

If he can sail to the USA -a big if- he would scuttle the ship close to the shore.

 

[Atomo]

Iceland

Darn, I thought I had an easy out for this one in Iceland but the USA didn't take over there under the U.S.-Icelandic defense agreement until July of 1941. If you could somehow have the USA take over there earlier by a few months all the Bismarck might have had to do is make Keflavík harbour. But that would take a few butterflies.

 

[Don Lardo]

Running out fuel after receiving damage off Iceland, Bismarck interns herself in New York City? Complete ASB.

Simply looking at a map will quickly reveal the fatal flaw in this proposal.

Using straight line distances, which ships can't steam, NYC is over twice as far from the Denmark Straits than Brest is. It's roughly 2500 miles to NYC from the Denmark Straits compared to something around 1200 miles to Brest. If the battleship doesn't have enough fuel oil to reach Brest, she most certainly doesn't have the oil to reach New York or any other US port for that matter.

As for Bismarck being interned in Iceland, that's completely ASB too. Instead of checking a map, this time we need to look at a calendar.

While the US-Iceland defense agreement didn't occur until July of 1941, the United Kingdom had invaded a unresisting Iceland on 10 May 1940, had 4,000 troops stationed there within a week, and heavily reinforced the island with troops and aircraft in the months after that.

The Denmark Strait battle took place on May 24th, 1941.

This is a proposal non-starter. Bismarck will attempt to return to Norway if she loses too much fuel or takes other damage which prevents her from completing her mission.

 

[Orry]

Irish port?

Would need to check on treaty details about when the British gave control of the major ports to the Free State...

 

[NHBL]

Irish port...

The Irish ports were back in the hands of the Irish by that time. But, it would take an amazing set of blunders and coincidences to get the battleship there.

Eire was neutral; I think the ship would be well and truely interned--but teh British might well do something stupid, and try to attack her in Irish waters--they aren't known for respecting neutral nations' rights. DeVelera has a real hot potato on his hands.

 

[Gridley]

Utter ASB, as noted above.

Even Ireland isn't much closer than a return to Norway, offers dubious protection at best (and guarantees Bismark's career in Germany's service is over), and requires sailing DIRECTLY TOWARDS ENGLAND.

If you want Bismark interned, you need a much earlier or a somewhat later POD.

You're best shot would be for Bismark to follow something more like the course Prince Eugen did in OTL, and be damaged at about the point Prince Eugen turned for Brest in OTL. Knowing the Home Fleet is between her and safety, she turns west to keep her pursuers out of reach for as long as possible. Home Fleet, essentially out of fuel, turns back when the US neutrality patrol begins to track Bismark.

The USN BatDiv 3 meets Bismark off Newfoundland and orders her to surrender or be destroyed if she crosses into US waters. Facing 36 14" guns, Bismark has little choice and is escorted to Portland, Maine, where her crew is interned. The ship herself is scrapped, though her guns are salvaged for use in shore batteries.

 

[Hero of Canton]

Utter ASB, as noted above.

You're best shot would be for Bismark to follow something more like the course Prince Eugen did in OTL, and be damaged at about the point Prince Eugen turned for Brest in OTL. Knowing the Home Fleet is between her and safety, she turns west to keep her pursuers out of reach for as long as possible. Home Fleet, essentially out of fuel, turns back when the US neutrality patrol begins to track Bismark.

The USN BatDiv 3 meets Bismark off Newfoundland and orders her to surrender or be destroyed if she crosses into US waters. Facing 36 14" guns, Bismark has little choice and is escorted to Portland, Maine, where her crew is interned. The ship herself is scrapped, though her guns are salvaged for use in shore batteries.

Rather than scrap an essentially brand new battleship wouldn't it be more likely that the USN would want to rename her and add her to the USN?

Hero of Canton

 

[David S Poepoe]

Would it be more likely that the USN would want to do a bolt by bolt examination of the most modern battleship afloat?

Also wouldn't the US be within its' rights to rename her and add her to the USN?

Hero of Canton

Where would the USN get the ammunition? The Germans use 15in shells, a caliber the US never adopted. Scrapped or sunk as a target. The Bismarck isn't quite the most modern battleship afloat.

 

[Gridley]

Would it be more likely that the USN would want to do a bolt by bolt examination of the most modern battleship afloat?

Also wouldn't the US be within its' rights to rename her and add her to the USN?

Hero of Canton

Um... more modern than USS North Carolina (BB55, commissioned 4/9/41) and USS Washington (BB56, commissioned 5/15/41)?

And why would the US want to add her? The USN has no other 15" gunned BB's, not to mention all the other problems of spare parts, etc. About the only battlewagon she might replace would be the USS Arkansas (BB33), which with her 12" guns was also the only ship in service with her gun type.

 

[Don Lardo]

Would it be more likely that the USN would want to do a bolt by bolt examination of the most modern battleship afloat?

Thanks for writing that. I really needed to laugh today.

 

[Hero of Canton]

Thanks for writing that. I really needed to laugh today.

Yet another value added service provided free of charge Don Lardo.

So make that instead...

Rather than scrap an essentially brand new battleship wouldn't it be more likely that the USN would want to rename her and add her to the USN?

Cannon bore size not withstanding, still cheaper than building another BB from the keel up wouldn't ya' figure?

Hero of Canton

 

[Gridley]

Cannon bore size not withstanding, still cheaper than building another BB from the keel up wouldn't ya' figure?

Sure... if the US was desperate for a battleship. But they weren't. USS Wyoming (BB32/AG17) still has three (of her six!) turrets and is being used as a training ship. She wasn't re-converted even after Pearl Harbor.

 

[kclcmdr]

Yet another value added service provided free of charge Don Lardo.

So make that instead...

Rather than scrap an essentially brand new battleship wouldn't it be more likely that the USN would want to rename her and add her to the USN?

Cannon bore size not withstanding, still cheaper than building another BB from the keel up wouldn't ya' figure?

Hero of Canton

On the remote and slim chance that America does get her to NYC or Boston Harbour, either using tugs or other heavy cruisers to escort her to US ports presuming the German Captain didn't scuttle her..

How about calling her the U.S.N. North Dakota of the Bismarck Class??

As for armaments... how about this for size??

Lots of AAA ... Quad 20mm and Duo 40mm with 5 in. dual purpose guns...

Since the original weaponary complement was ...
·--Main:-----------8 x 38cm/L52
·--Secondary:-----12 x 15cm/L55
·--Anti-aircraft:---16 x 10.5cm/L65
-------------------16 x 3.7cm/L83
-------------------18 x 2cm/L65

Maybe the change will be
·--Main:-----------8 x 38cm/L52
·--Secondary:----12 x 5 in (127 mm) 38 cal. Mark 12 guns
·--Anti-aircraft:--80 x 40 mm 56 cal. anti-aircraft guns (20x4) dual mount.
------------------40 x 20 mm 70 cal. anti-aircraft guns (20x2) quad mount.

 

[Don Lardo]

Rather than scrap an essentially brand new battleship wouldn't it be more likely that the USN would want to rename her and add her to the USN?

An essentially new battleship which would require a refit of nearly unimaginable scope because the US would be unable to order operating supplies and repair parts the vessel requires from Hitler & Company.

Cannon bore size not withstanding, still cheaper than building another BB from the keel up wouldn't ya' figure?

I wouldn't figure that at all because I don't wear the "post-industrial blinkers" so many people today do.

Bismarck's engineering plant alone would require the US to either manufacture what would be essentially one-off repair parts or gut the ship to replace her boilers and turbines with US plant. Rewiring the ship, because Bismarck is not only going to be operating on a different AC frequency but all her electrical equipment down to her light bulbs are going to be designed for that frequency, would be a herculean task.

And I'm not even going to get into the changes in weapons the US would have to make. It's either make small quantities of munitions for the guns aboard, ranging from 15-inch shells on down, or replace those weapons with US kit.

This isn't the Age of Nelson, you don't just sew together some sails, slap on a coat of paint, and make sure enough rum is aboard. Once you refit Bismarck into a condition that the US can not only operate but also supply and repair, you've basically spent enough money and drydock time to build another, better, US design battleship from the keel up.

 

[kclcmdr]

An essentially new battleship which would require a refit of nearly unimaginable scope because the US would be unable to order operating supplies and repair parts the vessel requires from Hitler & Company.

I wouldn't figure that at all because I don't wear the "post-industrial blinkers" so many people today do.

Bismarck's engineering plant alone would require the US to either manufacture what would be essentially one-off repair parts or gut the ship to replace her boilers and turbines with US plant. Rewiring the ship, because Bismarck is not only going to be operating on a different AC frequency but all her electrical equipment down to her light bulbs are going to be designed for that frequency, would be a herculean task.

And I'm not even going to get into the changes in weapons the US would have to make. It's either make small quantities of munitions for the guns aboard, ranging from 15-inch shells on down, or replace those weapons with US kit.

This isn't the Age of Nelson, you don't just sew together some sails, slap on a coat of paint, and make sure enough rum is aboard. Once you refit Bismarck into a condition that the US can not only operate but also supply and repair, you've basically spent enough money and drydock time to build another, better, US design battleship from the keel up.

So in theory ... If America & the USN is willing to paid for the expenses and manpower to strip and replace everything to get the U.S.S. North Dakota of the Bismarck Class up to specs..

If might take anywhere from 9 to 12 months to strip her down and put in new equipment, wiring, power plants, comm lines that also might take anywhere from 6 to 9 months and then go to sea trials that might make her available by late 1943 early 1944??

 

[Don Lardo]

So in theory ...

In theory? No.

In reality? HELL NO.

Your idea does not work. We've already pointed out that US ports are more than twice the distance of that to European ports and we've already pointed out the near impossible technical challenges. You can keep tossing out handwaves from now until the heat death of the universe but this goal of taking Bismarck into US service and renaming North Dakota is nothing but a fantasy.

This is a waste of your time and you can do much, much better.