Bf109E vs A6M2?

Just out of curiosity, I've seen lots of information about the Zeke or Zero going up against the Allied aircraft. But would anyone have an idea of how they would do against the Messerschmitt Bf109E? For example if in an alternative universe the Flying Tigers were a German unit rather than American flying the Bf109 instead of the P40?
 

Archibald

Banned
The heavily armed 109 would tear the Zero appart. by contrast the lightly armed Zero would have hard time shooting down the german aircraft.
Although the Zero might be far more agile. Depends if there is a dogfight or just a sneak attack on the Zero by the 109.
 
I'd say this is a redux of the Spitfire vs the Zero. If the BF109 gets into a turning fight, he's in trouble. However, the BF109 is better armed, better armored, climbs better, and though I don't know, I would say probably dives better too. So, I like the BF109 for this, as long as the pilot plays to his strengths
 
The only major advantage the Zero has, that can't be eliminated, is range. All the 109 has to do is avoid a turning fight, like most of the allied fighters.
 
It's not a game changer and LW aces obviously worked through it, but the Bf-109 pilot visibility is poor vs. the A6M. Start around 1:58 and you see the pilot is pretty much squeezed in there and would have some trouble turning.

 
The zero wasn't THAT lightly armed, it had a pair of 20mm cannons as well as its 7.62mm MG's, the problem with the cannons was they only had a single 60 round drum. But as folks said, if the 109 gets into a low to mid altitude turning fight with the Zero then he's probably gonna loose. He has to use his speed and power out of a dive, boom and zoom instead of dog fighting.

Assuming that the fighters met and they didn't know each others capabilities (as many Western pilots didn't know what the Zero could do) then if the 109 goes to start dogfighting then its gonna go south for him very quickly. But if he boom and zooms then the Zero can't catch the German fighter and is in trouble. It all depends on how they try to fight one another and if the 109 lets himself get sucked into a dogfight. And the Germans were trained to dogfight.

But if the 109 encounters the Zeke at high altitude then thats a dead zero, they were not very good performers at high altitude.
 

Deleted member 1487

Just out of curiosity, I've seen lots of information about the Zeke or Zero going up against the Allied aircraft. But would anyone have an idea of how they would do against the Messerschmitt Bf109E? For example if in an alternative universe the Flying Tigers were a German unit rather than American flying the Bf109 instead of the P40?
Basically use the same tactics of the P-40: boom and zoom, don't engage in a turning fight. If hit the Zero would die instantly. AFIAK the E-series Bf109 handled about the same as the P-40, so the same tactics would work. Now the Bf109F would be overkill. I think the same applies to the other Japanese army fighters, as the Ki-43, introduced in October 1941, is actually slower than the Hurricane Mk. II, which was slower than the Bf109E.

If the Luftwaffe sent a 'Condor Legion' to China, the Japanese would suffer quite badly at their hands, as unlike the AVG the Luftwaffe already had combat experience and modern tactics that would mince the IJA fighters.

I've discussed a Condor Legion for China in several forums including this one IIRC and generally speaking anything the Germans send in 1940-41 or later (assuming no WW2 and continued Sino-German alliance, no Japanese deal) would massacre the Japanese equivalent due to the better tactics and equipment the Germans had. They had developed a lot even just during the SCW, while the AVG had to develop their tactics when they got to China; of course the P-40E was a better aircraft, properly handled, than the IJA fighters and bombers they faced, so that really helped. The Americans pilots were also willing to learn and innovate, so they developed fast if they survived, so I'm thinking if the SCW Condor Legion vets form a nucleus for another intervention abroad, they'd bring enough combat skills and wariness of a new opponent (they learned the hard way in Spain vs. the Soviets) that they'd perform well right off the bat. Plus if it is in 1941 then the Bf109F is sent, which was a superlative fighter and bested the P-40E in North Africa and smashed the 1941 brand new Soviet fighters, so the 1941 standard and brand new IJA fighters would suffer badly if facing that.

If you send FW190s in late 1941 or 1942 then you'd be clubbing baby seals.
 
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If you send FW190s in late 1941 or 1942 then you'd be clubbing baby seals.

That really would not be a fair fight. Neary 80 mph faster, 5,000 feet more on the ceiling, more or less double the armarment. However, according to Wiki the A6M2 just shades rate of climb over the Fw 190 A8. Not sure whether to believe that or not.
 

Deleted member 1487

That really would not be a fair fight. Neary 80 mph faster, 5,000 feet more on the ceiling, more or less double the armarment. However, according to Wiki the A6M2 just shades rate of climb over the Fw 190 A8. Not sure whether to believe that or not.
The A8 was a heavy 1944 model. It had a lot of armor and armament to attack heavy bombers.
The A-2 was the first functional 1941 model (October 1941) and the A-3 was the major production model that showed up in early 1943. It was substantially lighter and faster thanks to using less heavy armament and less armor while having the same engine.
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/fw190a3.html
Since the IJA ran the war in China the Zero won't be showing up and in October 1941 the Ki-43 was introduced, which was slower than the Hurricane II. So it would have been dog meat for the FW190A-3 or Bf109F4
 
The A8 was a heavy 1944 model. It had a lot of armor and armament to attack heavy bombers.

True, but it also had a couple of wing cannon deleted and (IIRC) methanol water injection. I'm still mildly suprised that a 1944 version with 1,677 hp couldn't outclimb a 1941 Zero with 940hp.
 

Deleted member 1487

True, but it also had a couple of wing cannon deleted and (IIRC) methanol water injection. I'm still mildly suprised that a 1944 version with 1,677 hp couldn't outclimb a 1941 Zero with 940hp.
According to wikipedia the A-8 had 4x 20mm wing cannons and nose guns.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Fw_190#Specifications_.28Fw_190_A-8.29

The A-3 had only 2x 20mm in the wings and two MGs in the nose and two more in the wings. Having 2 less 20mms saves a substantial amount of weight, as does having less armor.
The Zero was made of wood with virtually no armor. It was literally half the weight of the empty A-8 and nearly kept that ratio loaded. So it's easier to climb even on lower power if you have half the weight on you.
 
The Japanese did buy some Me-109E's (the E-3 IIRC) and I believe test flew it against the Zero. The Japanese pilots disliked it for its lack of maneuverability but did admire its sturdiness and firepower...
 
According to wikipedia the A-8 had 4x 20mm wing cannons and nose guns.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Fw_190#Specifications_.28Fw_190_A-8.29

The A-3 had only 2x 20mm in the wings and two MGs in the nose and two more in the wings. Having 2 less 20mms saves a substantial amount of weight, as does having less armor.
The Zero was made of wood with virtually no armor. It was literally half the weight of the empty A-8 and nearly kept that ratio loaded. So it's easier to climb even on lower power if you have half the weight on you.

I was under the impression that the A8 had its outboard guns deleted. It seems that that was only when the 2x20mm gondolas or the 21cm grenade launchers were fitted.

One thing. I'm absolutely certain that the Zero was not made of wood. It was all metal. I can even recall a Channel 4 documentary about 25 years ago about a Canadian restorer who was paid by the Confederate Airforce to rebuild a wreck found on a Pacific island. Unbelievably, he claimed that the skin was a magnesium alloy. I'll have a look on youtube to see if I can find it.
 

Deleted member 1487

I was under the impression that the A8 had its outboard guns deleted. It seems that that was only when the 2x20mm gondolas or the 21cm grenade launchers were fitted.

One thing. I'm absolutely certain that the Zero was not made of wood. It was all metal. I can even recall a Channel 4 documentary about 25 years ago about a Canadian restorer who was paid by the Confederate Airforce to rebuild a wreck found on a Pacific island. Unbelievably, he claimed that the skin was a magnesium alloy. I'll have a look on youtube to see if I can find it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_A6M_Zero#Design_and_development
Seems you're right, they used a super light aluminum alloy. I must have fallen for old History Channel 'wisdom'.
 
I was under the impression that the A8 had its outboard guns deleted. It seems that that was only when the 2x20mm gondolas or the 21cm grenade launchers were fitted.

One thing. I'm absolutely certain that the Zero was not made of wood. It was all metal. I can even recall a Channel 4 documentary about 25 years ago about a Canadian restorer who was paid by the Confederate Airforce to rebuild a wreck found on a Pacific island. Unbelievably, he claimed that the skin was a magnesium alloy. I'll have a look on youtube to see if I can find it.

Well, late war who knows what might have been made. Also it's could just be some History Channel buffoon taking seriously some veteran noting that they burned like wood when you hit them. Of course, some magnesium alloy burns a bit better than wood...
 
I was under the impression that the A8 had its outboard guns deleted. It seems that that was only when the 2x20mm gondolas or the 21cm grenade launchers were fitted.

One thing. I'm absolutely certain that the Zero was not made of wood. It was all metal. I can even recall a Channel 4 documentary about 25 years ago about a Canadian restorer who was paid by the Confederate Airforce to rebuild a wreck found on a Pacific island. Unbelievably, he claimed that the skin was a magnesium alloy. I'll have a look on youtube to see if I can find it.
So that's why the buggers burnt so good.
Honestly the magnesium alloy might have been a desperate late war modification due to aluminum shortage.
 

Deleted member 1487

Well, late war who knows what might have been made. Also it's could just be some History Channel buffoon taking seriously some veteran noting that they burned like wood when you hit them. Of course, some magnesium alloy burns a bit better than wood...
Just ask the B-29 engine engineers.
 
So that's why the buggers burnt so good.
Honestly the magnesium alloy might have been a desperate late war modification due to aluminum shortage.

Well, I agree that makes sense, and I'm relying on my memory of seeing the programme about a quarter of a century ago, but IIRC this was an A6m2 model that they were fairly sure had taken part in the attack on Pearl Harbor. They found a repaired .50 cal bullet hole that they speculated had originally been made during the attack itself.

I can't seem to find any confirmation online, so I'm starting to think I dreamt the whole thing.
 
So that's why the buggers burnt so good.
Honestly the magnesium alloy might have been a desperate late war modification due to aluminum shortage.

It wasn't. Althought the whole "burns well" was caused more by the utter lack of armour than by the alloy, it did contain some magnesium from the start. It was called Duralumin.
 
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