Best POD's For a Second American Civil War

What are the best moments to trigger a 2ACW between 1865 and 1990? I have some ideas already.What more could be added ?
  • Much worse Reconstruction with slavery de facto kept in place and southern states reasserting themselves leading to a more radicalized Republican party.
  • Much better Reconstruction leading to the southern states to attempt secession a second time.
  • More severe gilded age and weaker progressive movement.
  • U.S. joins Central Powers and ends up on the losing side.
  • Debs is elected president and couped by military or business establishment.
  • Much worse Great Depression with no FDR or an FDR analogue that is victim of a " business plot" type scheme.
  • Above but the Axis win in Europe and Asia.
  • Also above but Eurasia is overrun by the Comintern.
  • The Red Scare goes off the rails and martial law is implemented or HUAC members start getting assassinated.
  • The Cuban Missile Crisis goes hot.
  • Civil Rights gets delayed or watered down and racial tensions ratchet up.
  • Hardline segregationists,libertarians, or theocrats get elected to the presidency with majorities in the house and senate.
  • Stagflation is far more severe,Iran goes communist,no Reagan comes along,far-left and far-right militias become more common.
 
What are the best moments to trigger a 2ACW between 1865 and 1990? I have some ideas already.What more could be added ?
The sheer scale of the carnage the ACW entailed made Americans quite keen to avoid another one. If you want a second one make the first end quickly. IE the POD needs to be before 1865.
Much worse Reconstruction with slavery de facto kept in place and southern states reasserting themselves leading to a more radicalized Republican party.
And how do you get that? Abe Lincoln may have been more moderate than Thaddeus Stevens but he wasn't the obstructionist Andrew Johnson was either. And despite his statement about how he would leave the slaves in bondage (or free them) if that's what it took to preserve the Union, 1865 is way too late a POD for him to allow slavery.
Much better Reconstruction leading to the southern states to attempt secession a second time.
Better reconstruction (presumably meaning not derailed by the Ku Klux Klan and waning northern commitment) means black people would have more power in the southern states, which they would presumably use to prevent secession. If the Ku Klux Klan or ATL equivalent actually tried to pull "south will rise again" scenario with full secession it would be crushed, but even they're not likely to go that far because they don't want a repeat of the ACW.
More severe gilded age and weaker progressive movement.
A more sever gilded age likely leads to a stronger progressive movement. Even the socialists if they rise to power are going to do so by democratic means.
U.S. joins Central Powers and ends up on the losing side.
If the USA joins the Central Powers (this requires a POD no later than 1895) the most likely outcome is a CP victory. However, even if the Entente prevails in Europe, they're not winning on the North American mainland.
Debs is elected president and couped by military or business establishment.
A business plot situation would just lead to the people responsible getting executed for treason. The U.S. military generally tries to stay out of politics. When MacArthur tried to go against Truman, his own proteges wouldn't back him. Merely getting Debs elected doesn't change that. You might get a small faction, but the best it's likely to get is an attempted coup. I guess that could be considered a brief civil war, but it would basically be a bunch of guys deciding to assassinate politicians/take them hostage and then either dying in a shootout with the rest of the military or being executed for treason.
Much worse Great Depression with no FDR or an FDR analogue that is victim of a " business plot" type scheme.
See above.
Above but the Axis win in Europe and Asia.
ASB.
Also above but Eurasia is overrun by the Comintern.
Even Kim Il Sung knew this would end in mushroom clouds.
The Red Scare goes off the rails and martial law is implemented or HUAC members start getting assassinated.
This could lead to a form of authoritarianism similar to what Woodrow Wilson implemented during World War I, but not a civil war.
The Cuban Missile Crisis goes hot.
The USA probably survives but with heavy damage and casualties. If it Balkanizes it will be because of a lack of infrastructure to tie the country together rather than different factions/regions trying to kill each other.
Civil Rights gets delayed or watered down and racial tensions ratchet up.
Might lead to more race riots but not a civil war.
Hardline segregationists,libertarians, or theocrats get elected to the presidency with majorities in the house and senate.
If they get the White House and majorities in both houses of Congress, that means popular support is widespread.
Stagflation is far more severe,Iran goes communist,no Reagan comes along,far-left and far-right militias become more common.
Communist Iran and a lack of Reagan don't mean civil war. If stagflation makes people sufficiently angry, they'll just vote incumbent politicians out of office because why would you go to war to get rid of your leadership when you can just vote it out? Left and right militias are going to be fringe movements.
To be fair, I don't think the actual MacArthur would have been any more amenable than Butler.
Even if he is more supportive, the rest of the military isn't going to go along with it.
 
A civil war as defined by academics and the Red Cross (two parties both with organized military forces fighting a protracted conflict, as opposed to assassinations, coups, terrorism, or riots) would be very difficult to achieve in the United States anytime in the 20th century due to America's high state capacity. I think you would need a much more severe Great Depression that substantially erodes the federal government's ability to fund raise.
 
Any Second American Civil War scenario requires that Lenin die before the October Revolution to occur. The Soviet Union is too much of a boogeyman to make one work otherwise.
 
There was a Michigan civil war wargame I remember, upper peninsula vs lower. Michigan wants to pay for Detroit's problems by accepting nuclear waste from other states and storing it in the upper peninsula, the upper peninsula seeceds from Michigan, its local militia and and local police vs state police and Michigan national guard.
 
To be fair, I don't think the actual MacArthur would have been any more amenable than Butler.

Eh... This is the dude who had WW1 vets sabered and tear gassed just a couple months earlier because he was certain it was a “communist plot”.
 
Eh... This is the dude who had WW1 vets sabered and tear gassed just a couple months earlier because he was certain it was a “communist plot”.
The worst part about our civic culture is that suppressive violence is lower on the totem than trespassing against institutions of the state.

Dissidents can very easily be considered targets in a way that the body of government itself cannot.

Merely getting Debs elected doesn't change that.

And that leads into why this statement isn't exactly true. A socialist taking power in the United States (in the most probable circumstances) is not going to be an uncontroversial event.
Most of the genteel elements of society, traditionalists, conservatives, and those are in any other way ideologically opposed, are going to see such an event as a violation of the country.

In a way that a more "acceptable" candidate would never (even in the case of the worst sorts of disasters) a socialist or any other sufficiently radical candidate would discredit the state to the degree that a coup is an acceptable alternative than yielding the country to interests that are considered "other".*

If a socialist is president, the seat may as well be vacant to the most powerful interests in the country. That's not an order that they would accept without major concessions, and should the radical in question not bend to some sort of unequal compromise with the major financial interests, there will be a reprisal.

* There is a deep strain of US political culture that lends an almost religious nature to the institutions of the Federal Government. Should an "unworthy" group take enough power in that government, it's the psychological equivalent of stealing someone's village idol in the Bronze Age.

They'll definitely fight over it, is my point. Respect for the government does not mean respect for those who are a part of it. If sufficiently discredited in the eyes of the oppositional parts of society, heads could absolutely roll.
 
The worst part about our civic culture is that suppressive violence is lower on the totem than trespassing against institutions of the state.

Dissidents can very easily be considered targets in a way that the body of government itself cannot.



And that leads into why this statement isn't exactly true. A socialist taking power in the United States (in the most probable circumstances) is not going to be an uncontroversial event.
Most of the genteel elements of society, traditionalists, conservatives, and those are in any other way ideologically opposed, are going to see such an event as a violation of the country.

In a way that a more "acceptable" candidate would never (even in the case of the worst sorts of disasters) a socialist or any other sufficiently radical candidate would discredit the state to the degree that a coup is an acceptable alternative than yielding the country to interests that are considered "other".*

If a socialist is president, the seat may as well be vacant to the most powerful interests in the country. That's not an order that they would accept without major concessions, and should the radical in question not bend to some sort of unequal compromise with the major financial interests, there will be a reprisal.

* There is a deep strain of US political culture that lends an almost religious nature to the institutions of the Federal Government. Should an "unworthy" group take enough power in that government, it's the psychological equivalent of stealing someone's village idol in the Bronze Age.

They'll definitely fight over it, is my point. Respect for the government does not mean respect for those who are a part of it. If sufficiently discredited in the eyes of the oppositional parts of society, heads could absolutely roll.
A bunch of business people objecting does not equal coup or civil war. If Debs is elected, that means there is considerable popular support. That's before we get into the apolitical nature of the military. They'll fight it in the courts or in Congress, but if they try to start a coup or a civil war, they're just going to get themselves executed for treason. If you want a civil war over the "psychological equivalent of stealing someone's village idol in the Bronze Age," there's the actual ACW, or you can make the actual ACW shorter and less bloody, giving people less fear of another one. All of this requires a POD before 1865. Otherwise the closest you can get are failed coups, terrorism, riots, and assassinations. Even if there is a business plot, it's not going to get enough support to actually install a government the business leader's want. That approach would only get the business leader's in question hanged, even if they do assassinate the POTUS. In OTL they didn't just "let" Teddy bust their trusts nor did they just let FDR raise their taxes. They called the Roosevelts traitors to their own class and tried to obstruct through Congress and Supreme Court, but actually going through with an attempt to overthrow the government by force would not have gotten them what they wanted; the federal government was too powerful was backed by the popular support of the people. The coup-attempters would have been executed for treason.

None of this is going into what it would take for Debs to get enough popular support to win the White House, but the only way he would get elected is if he had sizeable widespread support.
 
...Eurasia is overrun by the Comintern
That, or the Russian Revolution spreading to the rest of continental Europe, especially Germany, Italy and France, is the most likely possibility.

Most Americans would certainly be united against Communism: the question is whether the power of churches can overcome the potential appeal of its egalitarianism in racially (or otherwise) marginalised communities. No doubt this would be emphasised by a Europe where workers had taken power throughout, as Marxist theory emphasised the centrality of the most advanced nations to achieving Communism anywhere in the world.
Civil Rights gets delayed or watered down and racial tensions ratchet up
That might lead to a more deeply national conflict, but it is also possible that if civil rights were watered down there would be less racial tension. Much of the racial tension that turned working- and middle-class white Americans so overwhelmingly against the Democratic Party was a direct result of the Civil Rights Act, which those middle- and working-class whites saw as making blacks more assertive than natural law allowed them to be. It’s possible that if Civil Rights legislation was delayed or watered down then the brief 1970s period of net white migration into rural areas (not to suburbs) would have been substantially larger and cast a wider net, for instance possibly reversing the depopulation of lily-white Plains regions. A reversal of rural depopulation in the 1970s might well have lessened racial tension, because black Americans knew very well that rural areas outside the plantation South and Southwest were almost entirely off-limits to them.
 

Deleted member 109224

Wasn't there a military man who wanted to march on Washington in the 1890s?
 
None of this is going into what it would take for Debs to get enough popular support to win the White House, but the only way he would get elected is if he had sizeable widespread support.
That he would have widespread support is what would make him so polarizing. If socialism has become that popular, then so too would the forms of political reaction that rise in response to it.
These things don't exist in a vacuum.
This is not the same as a question of what would happen if Nixon won in 1960 instead of Kennedy, there's a world of context that has to come with the eventuality of a Debs victory or even just a Socialist Party victory in general.
Even if there is a business plot, it's not going to get enough support to actually install a government the business leader's want.
Says who? If OTL tells us anything, is that the cultural grievances of the middle classes mixed with material and cultural grievances of the upper classes is a very potent political force. Especially in an age where propaganda can be widespread.
That a socialist could win the presidency doesn't mean that all the cultural and political hangups of the United States have been surmounted, I think it would be safer to assume that those issues would actually be worse, that the opposition would be all the more fervent and committed.

And should push come to shove, there would be a lot more than just some angry capitalists supporting this kind of action. There's going to be small business owners, there's going to be culturally reactionary working class people, and so on. Civil society isn't always united behind the institutions they ought to be loyal to.
In OTL they didn't just "let" Teddy bust their trusts nor did they just let FDR raise their taxes. They called the Roosevelts traitors to their own class and tried to obstruct through Congress and Supreme Court, but actually going through with an attempt to overthrow the government by force would not have gotten them what they wanted
Comparing normal politics to abnormal politics isn't going to get you anywhere. Not unless you're predisposing that Socialist President X governs in the ways the two Roosevelts did, which is definitely plausible*, but I don't think that's what OP had in mind.

Reformists who attempt to bring balance to domestic politics and reformists/revolutionaries who seek to upend the balance on behalf of the working classes are going to be different in their effect but, more importantly, also in their perception.

Politics are about how different interests come into conflict with each other. And on a fundamental level, no matter how "radical" any proposal that comes from one of the mainstream parties is, it cannot represent the same level of threat. This is both because of the material interests of those parties often being linked to the upper classes' interests, but also because on a cultural level any proposals they make would be perceived as in-group dissension.

Class traitors or no, Roosevelts are going to have a lot more legitimacy than a trade unionist. They are more likely to be heard, considered, and tolerated, because they are of those that are most offended by reformist politics.

The poor, the laborers, the workers and farmers, these people are an other. And that has consequences for what is and isn't acceptable to do in opposition to them.

*Socialists the world over have moderated themselves when participating in electoral politics, and especially when they've achieved victories. So, it's not outside the realm of possibility that the governing Socialist Party actually isn't radical enough to raise tensions all that high.
the federal government was too powerful was backed by the popular support of the people
Popular support in the country is worthless if that support does not extend to those that are most capable of overthrowing the government/those who are most able to defend it.
The masses cannot be depended on to have the teeth to defend a government at a moment's notice.

But, I've talked enough.
 
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