Battle of the Atlantic.....
- Thread starter dmz23
- Start date
German naval aircraft would have outclassed the swordfish biplanes and other planes that RN carriers could throw at the task force. Unless the RN can score a hit on the Graf zeppelin from one of its battleships[very unlikely],the Germans will continue to sink tons of merchant vessels thoughout 1942.
The U-boats will have a much easier time with the RN distracted,which will again lead to heavy british losses.
Nothing will be able to challenge the German naval force-unless the U.S sends one or two of its carriers to the Atlantic.
Lend-lease supplies to Britain will drop dramatically towards the end of 1942.
Perhaps,the Torch landings in N.Africa are cancelled as a result. The extra aircraft and divisions available to the Germans mean Stalingrad is also less of a disaster.
Thoughts?
The U-boats will have a much easier time with the RN distracted,which will again lead to heavy british losses.
Nothing will be able to challenge the German naval force-unless the U.S sends one or two of its carriers to the Atlantic.
Lend-lease supplies to Britain will drop dramatically towards the end of 1942.
Perhaps,the Torch landings in N.Africa are cancelled as a result. The extra aircraft and divisions available to the Germans mean Stalingrad is also less of a disaster.
Thoughts?
The short answer to the question is No. The convoys would have to be suspended whilst the raiders were hunted down.
It raises two interesting contrasts with OTL. First and most obviously, tracking the Germans once they were in the Atlantic would be more difficult. This was done by aircraft and the Graf Zepp's fighters first task would be to chop these planes.
Less obviously, the Germans would be easier to spot whilst they were on their way out to the Atlantic, and the Graf Zepp's planes would be of little value in the clouds of the Denmark Straight.
I always tremble for these scenarios. Hood would have to be written back into the Home Fleet. In OTL she was destroyed by a lucky hit in the right place. This hit may not be duplicated in AH.
As for the convoys, those which could not make port would scatter. However, those enjoying the protection of an R class battleship could well make it. The Scharnhorst and Gneisenau once retreated from a convoy with such an escort.
The reason for this was that the Germans could not take the risk of having a heavy unit badly damaged miles from anywhere.
Yes, battleships were difficult to sink back then. But they could be disabled quite quickly, given the right force. It took exactly 30 minutes' worth of gunfire from the Rodney and the KGV to leave Bismark on fire and sinking.
It raises two interesting contrasts with OTL. First and most obviously, tracking the Germans once they were in the Atlantic would be more difficult. This was done by aircraft and the Graf Zepp's fighters first task would be to chop these planes.
Less obviously, the Germans would be easier to spot whilst they were on their way out to the Atlantic, and the Graf Zepp's planes would be of little value in the clouds of the Denmark Straight.
I always tremble for these scenarios. Hood would have to be written back into the Home Fleet. In OTL she was destroyed by a lucky hit in the right place. This hit may not be duplicated in AH.
As for the convoys, those which could not make port would scatter. However, those enjoying the protection of an R class battleship could well make it. The Scharnhorst and Gneisenau once retreated from a convoy with such an escort.
The reason for this was that the Germans could not take the risk of having a heavy unit badly damaged miles from anywhere.
Yes, battleships were difficult to sink back then. But they could be disabled quite quickly, given the right force. It took exactly 30 minutes' worth of gunfire from the Rodney and the KGV to leave Bismark on fire and sinking.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
Are you kidding with this? What bases are the Germans going to operate from? How will they rearm and refuel? Replace parts? Conduct repairs?
Would German naval aircraft REALLY have outclassed RN naval aircraft? Did the Germans have decades of experience with carrier operations, or none at all?
The RN will utterly crush this force as rapidly as it did Bismarck.
Would German naval aircraft REALLY have outclassed RN naval aircraft? Did the Germans have decades of experience with carrier operations, or none at all?
The RN will utterly crush this force as rapidly as it did Bismarck.
I've been thinking about this a little more. We can't simply say that because German naval aircraft outclassed RN naval aircraft, so the Germans must win. If we say that, the Americans would lose the Battle of Midway.
Also, the Germans had no viable naval torpedo aircraft. When you get down to battleships, torpedoes are the Killer. Bombs are an inconvenience but torpedoes do the killing. So the Graf Zeppelin becomes a unit purely defensive in nature, and which ties the German battleships because they have to protect it.
The next problem is a Fleet Train able to supply such a large and thirsty fleet, getting this train into position and maintaining it there without the Brits sinking it. With a fleet of that size, you can't just slip into a Spanish port with a credit card. The only available port is Brest, well within range of the RAF, who would rejoice at such a profusion of large stationary targets.
Actually, I don't think the Graf is a viable ship for such a mission at that time. Another reason is that the Germans would have no screening destroyers.
As for the U-Boats, it would all depend on the result of the ultimate battle between the German battleships and such of the British Fleet as could be assembled.
Also, the Germans had no viable naval torpedo aircraft. When you get down to battleships, torpedoes are the Killer. Bombs are an inconvenience but torpedoes do the killing. So the Graf Zeppelin becomes a unit purely defensive in nature, and which ties the German battleships because they have to protect it.
The next problem is a Fleet Train able to supply such a large and thirsty fleet, getting this train into position and maintaining it there without the Brits sinking it. With a fleet of that size, you can't just slip into a Spanish port with a credit card. The only available port is Brest, well within range of the RAF, who would rejoice at such a profusion of large stationary targets.
Actually, I don't think the Graf is a viable ship for such a mission at that time. Another reason is that the Germans would have no screening destroyers.
As for the U-Boats, it would all depend on the result of the ultimate battle between the German battleships and such of the British Fleet as could be assembled.
The Germans managed to resupply the two twins (Scharnhorst and Gneisenau) during their voyage of destruction (Operation Berlin) all over the Atlantic.
It's certainly not outright impossible to replicate this. Being commerce raiders, the Bismarck class actually had a lot of range and was quite fast for a battleship at the time. For Graf Zeppelin, more speculation is needed, but a long range and reasonable speed are probably likely.
As for the airgroup, only scouts (to search for convoys) and fighters (to dispatch with enemy aircraft) are needed. For sinking ships, there are two BBs in this scenario. For the enemy (most likely R class I think) BB convoy escorts, you don't use torpedo's in the often stormy Atlantic: you use those 15" guns the Bismarcks were equiped with.
It's certainly not outright impossible to replicate this. Being commerce raiders, the Bismarck class actually had a lot of range and was quite fast for a battleship at the time. For Graf Zeppelin, more speculation is needed, but a long range and reasonable speed are probably likely.
As for the airgroup, only scouts (to search for convoys) and fighters (to dispatch with enemy aircraft) are needed. For sinking ships, there are two BBs in this scenario. For the enemy (most likely R class I think) BB convoy escorts, you don't use torpedo's in the often stormy Atlantic: you use those 15" guns the Bismarcks were equiped with.
David S Poepoe
Banned
Terrible waste of an uncompleted and unarmed carrier. What is she suppose to do carry the goods they take off captured merchant ships?
The Germans would also have to contend with the American Atlantic Fleet. To the Royal Navy's Home Fleet, then, we could add at least five American battleships (Texas, New York, and the three New Mexico's) as well as the carrier Ranger, possibly Yorktown (transitioned to the Pacific around that time) and Hornet (working up during that period). If the RN can track the German battle group, the end in inevitable.
I'll post a more complete reply later if I have the time, but suffice to say that:
- The RN, facing a stronger fleet in being near the critical NA, would not have sent Force Z to be sunk
- US forces would also help track and destroy this fleet if it sails
- The RN would be very likely to know when the force sails, and be better positioned to attack it than say, when Bismark sailed
- The KM have absolutely no experience in operating this kind of force, the RN has plenty of experience in using the forces it has in this matter.
- The Graf Spee's aircraft composition (no torpedo bombers, fighter aircraft less suited to carrier ops than the Seafire, and some vulnerable Stukas) isn't the total overmatch that most assume
This is whats wrong with this site. Its well documented that GZ completion was delayed for various political reasons etc. The whole idea of a WI is to ask if it was completed , what would be happen ?
You telling us you didn't know that or are you trying to be clever?
The rest of you would do well to reflect on what happened just a few months earlier when the twins got out.
Had it been left to the original schedual GZ & B would have been commissioned in 1939/40 and would have been ready to sail in early 1941 along with the twins.
Besides German naval doctrine didn't envisage raiding with such large groups since these are easier to detect. They would have split the twins Bismarck , a pair of cruisers and GZ ; into 2-3 groups ; to raid in sequence & relaction to each other as part of a plan in conjuntion with some Wolf packs.
When Bismarck went down, there were a dozen convoy groups at sea in the North Atlantic alone. Operational manuever to draw off the RN capital ships allowing other raiders to chase down these convoys and scatter them into the hands of wolf packs would have been the accepted doctrine.
Fighters...
One consideration with Graf Zeppelin: The aircraft.
The ME 109 was poorly suited to be a naval fighter due to the narrow undercarriage and difficult ground handling--carrier aircraft have to be relatively stable.
She'll be loosing fighters to opperational accidents ratehr fast. And since she's a new, just worked up ship, and the first one of her kind, there's not the deep bpdy of experiance to minimise such accidents.
(And the ME109 was the plane they were going to use--there were a few actually built with carrier gear)
In short, defensively, I'd expect her to be reduced in effectiveness rather quickly--especially in Atlantic opperations. There's no way they would take off (or even more important, land) in seas that the Royal Navy can handle. (Decades of practical experiance means a lot; the British were doing full deck carrier ops in the Great War)
One consideration with Graf Zeppelin: The aircraft.
The ME 109 was poorly suited to be a naval fighter due to the narrow undercarriage and difficult ground handling--carrier aircraft have to be relatively stable.
She'll be loosing fighters to opperational accidents ratehr fast. And since she's a new, just worked up ship, and the first one of her kind, there's not the deep bpdy of experiance to minimise such accidents.
(And the ME109 was the plane they were going to use--there were a few actually built with carrier gear)
In short, defensively, I'd expect her to be reduced in effectiveness rather quickly--especially in Atlantic opperations. There's no way they would take off (or even more important, land) in seas that the Royal Navy can handle. (Decades of practical experiance means a lot; the British were doing full deck carrier ops in the Great War)
David S Poepoe
Banned
This is whats wrong with this site. Its well documented that GZ completion was delayed for various political reasons etc. The whole idea of a WI is to ask if it was completed , what would be happen ?
You telling us you didn't know that or are you trying to be clever?
This is whats wrong with this WI. For the Graf Zeppelin to have been completed you would have needed to have listed the POD as being pre-1941. What should have been mentioned is 'how it could have happened'.
I think I'm rather clever. When I see a posting that the author has given himself just enough rope to hang himself I quickly pull on the rope.
The idea that the Kriegsmarine would have split this Task Force into two is ill-founded. The Germans were perfectly well aware the RN could usually assemble two battleships. To keep the Bismark/Tirpitz together would force the RN to assemble four battleships, a much more difficult undertaking.
Also cruiser escort is suggested. Not possible. The trouble with German cruisers was that they had short range. That's why Eugen had to peel off from the Bismark to return to Brest for fuel.
A suggestion. The Scharnhorst & Gneisenau were originally designed to be upgunned to 15 inch. Suppose this happened.
Also cruiser escort is suggested. Not possible. The trouble with German cruisers was that they had short range. That's why Eugen had to peel off from the Bismark to return to Brest for fuel.
A suggestion. The Scharnhorst & Gneisenau were originally designed to be upgunned to 15 inch. Suppose this happened.
I agree with the posters that mentioned the facts about Graf Zeppelin, i.e. especially lack of proper naval aircraft and training, as well as rather small number of aircraft on board, and total lack of torpedo bombers. Furthermore, Germany, without a significant change in strategy much earlier, will be unable to resupply such a task group.
Adding now the superiority of the RN (and, if we are in 1942, USN) in the Atlantic, the result is rather certain. Please note also that a task force of BBs and a CV only is not well balanced, and Germany will not have any DDs with sufficient range to accompany them. You might use some Hipper CAs, but even they are rather short legged.
I think this scenario already has been discussed at least twice in the last three years, but that might have been on the Warships board.
Anyway, to make a long story short, Germany will not be able to change the outcome of the war. The best result possible for the Reich will be that damaged ships retreat to a French or Norwegian port, but the most probable result is loss of at least part of the task force.
Adding now the superiority of the RN (and, if we are in 1942, USN) in the Atlantic, the result is rather certain. Please note also that a task force of BBs and a CV only is not well balanced, and Germany will not have any DDs with sufficient range to accompany them. You might use some Hipper CAs, but even they are rather short legged.
I think this scenario already has been discussed at least twice in the last three years, but that might have been on the Warships board.
Anyway, to make a long story short, Germany will not be able to change the outcome of the war. The best result possible for the Reich will be that damaged ships retreat to a French or Norwegian port, but the most probable result is loss of at least part of the task force.
The problem is these are all excuses to avoid having to deal with the basic question.
Ignor how they got to where they are in the WI, just answer the question. The basic point is that the history tells us that lucky Stringbag sortie finds Bismarck and put lucky torpedo strike to cripple her. If there is a germaan carrier present this is unlikely to happen.
Oh BTW Stuka in mid 1941 were sufficently adapt that in the Med they had pounded Cunninghams battle group around crete including as I recall damaging battleships.
The forces chasing Bismarck had only 6 fighters and a dozen or so Sopwith Camels [OK Swordfish]. Even 42 Stuka as a GZ fighters would have made short work of these.
Ignor how they got to where they are in the WI, just answer the question. The basic point is that the history tells us that lucky Stringbag sortie finds Bismarck and put lucky torpedo strike to cripple her. If there is a germaan carrier present this is unlikely to happen.
Oh BTW Stuka in mid 1941 were sufficently adapt that in the Med they had pounded Cunninghams battle group around crete including as I recall damaging battleships.
The forces chasing Bismarck had only 6 fighters and a dozen or so Sopwith Camels [OK Swordfish
]. Even 42 Stuka as a GZ fighters would have made short work of these.