What dynasty would become an equivalent of the Habsburgs in Asia, I think the Yamato of the Chrysanthemum throne of Japan or the House of Ming..
Asian 'Habsburgs'
- Thread starter kasumigenx
- Start date
In what manner would the mimic the Habsburgs? Acquiring an empire through lucky inheritances or breeding themselves to extinction?
~twitch~ When people ignorant of history says this, I don't care, but when I hear that on this board it drives me spare.
Let's all repeat: THE HAPSBURG DYNASTY STILL LIVES TO THIS DAY. Loss of crowns due to revolution is not the same as extintion. Daugthers are just as genetically Hapsburg as sons.
For that matter, the poster child of Habsburg inbreeding, Charles II of Spain... yes, he was as bad as it has been told. But his heir, the first spanish Bourbon, was the granson of his equally Hapsburg sister, and his dinasty still rules Spain
Valdemar II
Banned
In fact one of his equal inbreed sisters, who was perfect healthy, married her almost as inbreed uncle/cousin and they produced a healthy daugther, and while their other children died in childhood, that wasn't unusual. While the other married her 1st cousin the king of france, and produced several healthy children
No, because women don't inherit surnames.
They would mimic the habsburg via Inheritances.
scholar
Banned
You can only do that through Mongols and Turks, also maybe some others.
Chinese Emperors have so many children that inheriting the throne from anyone other than a close relative is next to impossible. Not to mention that it is patriarchal so no amount of motherly influence will get her family the throne unless its by coup. The same with Japan. Korea is a different story, but it's not quite that different to make it work. And Southeast Asia is another no-no. I'm not sure about India, but I know that in Persia and Arabia it wouldn't work for that same reason. Now with Mongols and their Turkic followers this is entirely possible and has happened, at least in small minor cases.
Chinese Emperors have so many children that inheriting the throne from anyone other than a close relative is next to impossible. Not to mention that it is patriarchal so no amount of motherly influence will get her family the throne unless its by coup. The same with Japan. Korea is a different story, but it's not quite that different to make it work. And Southeast Asia is another no-no. I'm not sure about India, but I know that in Persia and Arabia it wouldn't work for that same reason. Now with Mongols and their Turkic followers this is entirely possible and has happened, at least in small minor cases.
Ah, and I suppose than when the surname of the child turns into Bourbon or Gotha, suddenly the gene pool becomes magically clean and the "hapsburg inbreeding" stops being a problem?
Yes, having a foreign dynasty is a no-no in South East Asia.
No, not exactly but the dynasty is now Bourbon-Anjou that has Habsburg blood and blood from both Valois-Burgundy and direct Valois.
Valdemar II
Banned
Except Maria Theresa did, Habsburg-Lorraine only exist on wikipedia, everywhere else Habsburg survived.
A subset of the Mongols, who did have thrones all over Asia. The Mughals were descended from Tamerlane, many other rulers were descended from Genghis Khan, and I think the two lines intermarried. I can imagine the intertwined Mongol dynasties continuing for longer than they did [The last Genghis Khanite ruler was the emir of Bukhara, deposed by the Bolsheviks in 1920].
scholar
Banned
That won't happen. Not without radical redrawing of what it is to be Southeast Asian, by that I mean Burman, Thai, Vietnamese, Malay, Cambodian, etc. Especially when it comes to their relation with China. The only way I see a foreign dynasty going there diplomatically is if there is a Chinese prince willing to make the trip and stay there long enough to call it home. This has only happened once... I believe. And it wasn't a prince, but rather a distant son-in-law to the Empress Dowager. So... even that's not a real option. Now having the Cholas disintegrate into a dozen pieces, each ruled by a Cholas might be a good starting point.
Flocculencio
Donor
A whole lot of them. I think you're looking at a modern map and asking why these polities couldn't come under one ruler. You're asking the wrong question.
Modern boundaries are modern- the Mughal emperors, for example, ruled over a huge number of states with different cultures and languages- it's not all just homogenous "Indian". This was an area larger than the Hapsburg dominions with much more cultural variation.
So many Westerners tend to forget scale when it comes to Asia
Yep, they adopted the Habsburg surname but outside the Austro-Hungarian realm they are sometimes referred as Casa di Lorena or Habsburg-Lorraine like in Tuscany.
Where? I've never seen the post-Maria Theresa house being referred to that of Lorraine. Yes, properly, they are the House of Habsburg-Lorraine, or even more properly just Lorraine, but Habsburg is what is prevailed. Maria Theresa was an heiress to two kingdoms and a family who had ruled as Emperor's for generations. Her husband was the lowly heir of the Duchies of Lorraine and Bar, and was deprived of it in order to marry her, given Tuscany in exchange. His dynasty was essentially submerged into hers, and Francis Stephen didn't even rule Tuscany, leaving it to it's devices. When Leopold came, I'm pretty sure he was merely a Habsburg. I've never seen it referred to the 'Casa di Lorena' or Habsburg-Lorraine except on the Wiki.
The Habsburgs united Austria, Spain, and the Netherlands in a simple way: marrying heiresses. So to get an Asian equivalent, you just need matrilineal inheritance accepted as a possibility. The difficulty here is that it doesn't seem likely that dynasties will go for matrilineal inheritance when a just-as-related patrilineal inheritance is a possibility, and (dramatically generalizing here, I know) I think the typical Asian ruler, not constrained by Christian rules of monogamy, would have an easier time producing a son. Asia's a big place, though, and it's not absurd that some part of it would develop traditions that limit rulers' legitimate male heirs. I think such a practice, though, is a helpful substrate for Habsburg-style dynastic unions.