They will try this only if they are thrilled with the idea that their invasion force will be butchered to the man without accomplishing much.
Asia kickes the whites out of the American West
- Thread starter truesimgod
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Japan and China were both, and frankly in most respects still are, less industrialized than the United States. They had no capacity to project power across the Pacific Ocean in any meaningful way--the best they can hope for is a glorious battle in San Francisco bay in which the US Navy destroys the lot of them, but has to break a sweat. This is assuming that China and Japan join forces--why would they? Japan's imperial ambitions were in Korea and Manchuria, and mainland China. Japan, in terms of geopolitics, had more in common with Russia, Britain, France, and Germany than it did with China.
As for kicking the white people out, good luck clearing out a very heavily populated part of the United States--an area equal in importance to much of the East Coast. And freeing it from who? Its original inhabitants were mostly dead, after all. Would China and Japan try to resettle it? They had enough troubles settling Manchuria!
EDIT: RE: Pearl Harbor. Japan wanted to take out the base of operations of the US Pacific Fleet to open the way for a Japanese takeover of the Dutch East Indies and Philippines, and to cut off American support for the Chinese. They didn't manage to cripple the US Navy very much at all, so Pearl Harbor was more a slap-in-the-face than the kick-in-the-balls it was supposed to be.
As for kicking the white people out, good luck clearing out a very heavily populated part of the United States--an area equal in importance to much of the East Coast. And freeing it from who? Its original inhabitants were mostly dead, after all. Would China and Japan try to resettle it? They had enough troubles settling Manchuria!
EDIT: RE: Pearl Harbor. Japan wanted to take out the base of operations of the US Pacific Fleet to open the way for a Japanese takeover of the Dutch East Indies and Philippines, and to cut off American support for the Chinese. They didn't manage to cripple the US Navy very much at all, so Pearl Harbor was more a slap-in-the-face than the kick-in-the-balls it was supposed to be.
As far as Pearl Harbor goes Japan obviously had the capacity to RAID IT but that in no way says they could CONQUER Hawaii. Those are two different things.
Can't be done with a post-1900 POD, there simply aren't any Asian nations or coaltions thereof in the 20th century with the resources and power projection to take California and hold it, and it's too late to tweak Asian growth to change this before it all becomes academic when the US develops the capacity to reduce east Asia to a radioactive parking lot.
Now, with say a 1700s POD where Qing China decides to pay more attention to the outside world thing, there is some chance to get an Asian California before the US (assuming it's not butterflied away) grows into an industrial titan. Post 1900? Off the top of my head, a scenario is one in which there is a WWIII which China stays out of, and China is later one of the nations that moves in to occupy the radioactive rubble after the famines and radiation deaths die down at home...
Bruce
Now, with say a 1700s POD where Qing China decides to pay more attention to the outside world thing, there is some chance to get an Asian California before the US (assuming it's not butterflied away) grows into an industrial titan. Post 1900? Off the top of my head, a scenario is one in which there is a WWIII which China stays out of, and China is later one of the nations that moves in to occupy the radioactive rubble after the famines and radiation deaths die down at home...
Bruce
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Japan thought the US would just give up once it had been beaten hard enough, like Russia, they were wrong
Pearl Harbor was a one-off raid, not an invasion. It was at the far end of Japanese logistical support, such that most of the ships had to carry extra fuel drums on deck so they would have enough fuel to make the journey. Japan could not have sustained any sort of invasion of Hawaii that stood any chance of taking Hawaii.
Regarding reasons; the Japanese had regarded the US as an enemy since they invaded China in 1937. The US had been slowly economically strangling them over things like the invasion of Manchuria, the invasion of China, the Rape of Nanking, etc. The Japanese needed the resources of the East Indies, especially oil and rubber, to sustain the invasion of China that they were in too far to withdraw from. They calculated, rightly, that they could not seize these resources without provoking a US declaration of war. So, they decided to include the US in their initial attacks, since they couldn't exactly leave US bases like the Philippines sitting across their lines of supply.
Basically, the Japanese knew what they were getting into, and were betting everything on being able to negotiate favorable terms with the US after a six-month war. They knew they couldn't possibly win a long war.
First, Manchuria, as far as I know, is snowy and not too good for growing crops; Second, why did Japan sacrifice so many troops in WWII? ---------!!!!! What if Japan's war cry was to free the Western Americas from the "Nasty Whites" and then settle and live with the original inhabitants (all the Native Californians they can find)?
Then they DIE!! They simply had no capacity of doing this. They didn't have the navy, the sealift capability or the logistics to do this.
Neither Japan or China had the technology to sustain a long voyage over the Pacific. What naval technology they did have was relatively primative and better for short range operations. The scenario that you're asking is that a major Asian power travel 2500-3000 miles to the entire American west coast in the early 20th century. At that point, the U.S. military was in poisiton in the region and the United States had a substantial industry there. Even if an Asian country were to manage some from of foot hold, it wouldn't be able to maintain it, the U.S. Navy, which was a formitable force at this point would cut of their supply lines ending their ability to resupply and re arm. Another thing to consider is that the American west was a highly armed and volatile region, not only would the Asian have to contend with the U.S. Military, but also American civilians who will be better armed, provisioned and know the land significantly more.
This article shows why Japan couldn't invade Hawaii not talking about California. http://www.combinedfleet.com/pearlops.htm
Columbus and the founding of White America were quite a Manifest Destiny for Europe already. I call the faliure of Asians to gain a foothold on the American Near East (the Pacific Coast) the Failed Manifest Destiny. That is from the bottom of my heart.
Doesn't change the fact that is people weren't as ethnically Chinese as the rest of China and thus were easier to set up a puppet regime over--resentment towards the Chinese was present to a degree. It was good enough for wheat farming--pretty damn good country for it, in fact, rather like southern Russia, one of the world's breadbaskets. And it had lots of iron and coal mines and I'm pretty sure there were oil wells there.
Why did Japan sacrifice so many troops? In the hopes that the Decadent West would give up and leave Japan with an Empire and her honor intact. They hoped that the Americans would just give up at some point and Japan would be able to keep Korea, the puppet regime in Manchukuo, and Taiwan, at least.
Finally, Japan's capabilities. Her focus was always China--exploiting the resources of the continent immediately adjacent to her. Her military was built around this--infantry forces for occupation, light tanks, and a navy focused on rather short-range operations in the sea off the Chinese and Russian coasts. Even her carrier fleet was designed with adventues no further than south-east Asia in mind. It is unbelievably difficult to support an invasion fleet across the biggest ocean on earth--that's why the US went and secured islands right up to the Japanese coast before the planned invasion was to go through. Japan did not have the capacity to conquer Hawaii--Midway, just maybe, but not Hawaii--too far and too close to the North American continent. Without those bases secure, there is no way to mount an invasion of the populated parts of the American west.
Then their troops are somewhat less motivated than OTL.
Also, what Polish Eagle said.
Put it this way, Wolfpaw. White America (including Latin America) has bullied its way to controlling every last square micron of the Americas, and the Asians and Africans had no fair chance in at least controlling one square micron and calling it their own, at least until 1940-1970 in the least sense. It makes me want to throw up. Don't even talk about the Native Americans.
Put it this way, Wolfpaw. White America (including Latin America) has bullied its way to controlling every last square micron of the Americas, and the Asians and Africans had no fair chance in at least controlling one square micron and calling it their own, at least until 1940-1970 in the least sense. It makes me want to throw up. Don't even talk about the Native Americans.
You're unhappy that Asians had no chance to steal land from and murder Native Americans?
Bruce
Put it this way, Wolfpaw. White America (including Latin America) has bullied its way to controlling every last square micron of the Americas, and the Asians and Africans had no fair chance in at least controlling one square micron and calling it their own, at least until 1940-1970 in the least sense. It makes me want to throw up. Don't even talk about the Native Americans.
There are plenty of timelines on here regarding more successful Native American or African or Asian states, if that's what you're interested in.
But whatever ideological convictions you have don't change basic historical fact.