Arthur and Katherine of Aragon had a daughter...

Cate13

Aingeal Stone said:
What if Katherine of Aragon was with child when Arthur died,
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So, when I read this, my first thought was 'what changed so that Katherine becomes pregnant?"

Now I know it anecdotal, but there are a lot of stories of people who've struggled with fertility adopting and then getting pregnant. The theory I heard was that something about being around a baby helps the body conceive.

So, the POD I came up with starts before Katherine falls pregnant; Prince Edmund Tudor doesn't die in 1500, and it's his presence that triggers Katherine's fertility.

Then when, after Arthur's death, Katherine gives birth to Elizabeth Tudor, the Tudors have their slightly complicated inheritance issue. Henry VII solves it by betrothing Henry and Elizabeth. The Pope grants dispensation. The slightly more protected inheritance, Elizabeth and Edmund in addition to Henry, ensures Elizabeth of York has a smoother pregnancy and she safely delivers Katherine Tudor.

Henry VII Tudor, (1457-1509) King of England m. Elizabeth of York (1466-1518)
I. Prince Arthur Tudor (1486-1502), Prince of Wales m. Infanta Catalina Trastamara of Aragon (1485-1564)
A. Queen Elizabeth I Tudor (1502-1583) Queen of England (See Henry VIII)​

II. Princess Margaret Tudor (1489-1541), Queen Consort of Scots m. King James IV Stewart of Scotland
A. King James V Stewart (1513-1543), King of Scots m. Princess Marie Valois (1515-1553) in 1535
1. Prince James Stewart (1537-1540)
2. Queen Mary I Stewart (1540-1613) (see Edmund IV)
3. King Arthur I Stewart (1543-1549)​

III. King Henry VIII (1491-1547), King of England v m. Queen Elizabeth I of England
A. King Edmund III (1518-1567), King of England m. Princess Charlotte of France, in 1535; and Lady Katheryn Parr in 1549
with Princess Charlotte of France:
1. Prince Edmund Tudor (1537-1539), Prince of Wales
2. Princess Anne Tudor (1539-1573)
3. Prince Henry Tudor (1540-1555), Prince of Wales
4. King Edmund IV Tudor (1543-1570), King of England m. Queen Mary I Stewart in 1556​
with Lady Katheryn Parr:
5. Princess Elizabeth Tudor (1550-1612) m. Emperor Rudolf II, Holy Roman Emperor in 1569​
B. Arthur Tudor (1521-1522)
C. Princess Mary Tudor (1524-1543) m. Prince Manuel of Portugal in 1542
1. King Duarte II Aviz (1543-1629), King of Portugal​
D. Prince Henry Tudor (1529-1563) m. Queen Jeanne III d’Albret of Navarre in 1549
1. Prince Henri Tudor (1551-1553)
2. King Henri III Tudor (1554-1626), King of Navarre
3. Princess Charlotte Tudor (1559-1598) m. King Charles X de Bourbon, King of France
4. Princess Marguerite Tudor (1562-1610)​
E. Princess Cecily Tudor (1533-1597) m. Thomas Howard, Duke of Norfolk in 1554
1. Edmund Howard (1555-1604), Duke of Norfolk
2. Thomas Howard (1559-1560)
3. Cecily Howard (1562-1635)
4. Thomas Howard (1564-1636), Duke of Norfolk​
F. Prince Thomas Tudor (1540-1591), Duke of Richmond m. Lady Anne Stafford in 1559
1. Edmund Tudor (1560-1603), Duke of Richmond
2. Mary Tudor (1563-1565)
3. Margaret Tudor (1566-1600)​

IV. Elizabeth Tudor (1492-1495)​

V. Princess Mary Tudor (1496-1533), Dowager Queen of France m. Louis XII Valois in 1514; and Charles Brandon, Duke of Suffolk in 1518
with Louis XII, King of France:
A. Princess Marie Valois (1515-1543) (see James Stewart)​
with Charles Brandon:
B. Lady Elizabeth Brandon (1520-1598) (See Edmund Tudor)
C. Lady Eleanor Brandon (1520-1601) m. James Douglas, 4th Earl of Morton in 1541
1. Lady Mary Douglas (1542-1587)
2. Lady Margaret Douglas (1545-1580)​

VI. Edward Tudor (1498-1499)​

VII. Prince Edmund Tudor (1499-1518), Duke of Somerset m. Margaret Courtenay in 1517
A. Edmund Tudor (1519-1586), Duke of Somerset m. Lady Elizabeth Brandon in 1541
1. Henry Tudor (1542-1589), Duke of Somerset and Suffolk
2. Charlotte Tudor (1544-1582)
3. Jasper Tudor (1548-1574)
4. Cathrine Tudor (1551-1592)​

VII. Princess Katherine Tudor (1503-1518) m. Emperor Charles V Habsburg, Holy Roman Emperor in 1517
A. Prince Enrique Habsburg (1518-1550) m. Infanta Maria Aviz of Portugal in 1538
1. King Enrique I Habsburg (1540-1603), King of Spain
2. Infante Charles Habsburg (1544-1551)
3. Infanta Catalina Habsburg (1550-1598)​
 
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isabella

Just a thing: likely Elizabeth Tudor will not count as Queen regnant of England but just as Queen consort (like her grandmother)
 
Milites

Milites

I simply do not see Henry VIII marrying his niece. What's the sources for such a postulate? IMHO it would be far more controversial than simply getting hitched with his late brother's widow.
 

Just a Rube

I suspect baby Henrietta will have a career in the nunnery lined up for herself from day one. The Plantagenets weren't nearly as gung-ho about sending their excess daughters off to become abbesses as the Anglo-Saxons or the Germans were, but this is certainly a situation that calls for it.

Remember, there has never been a queen regnant in England at this point, and it is very unclear that English law allowed it. Indeed, Henry VII's mother (through whom he claimed the throne) was still alive when Henry VII was crowned, so to the extent there was a precedent, it was that they could pass on the claim, but not hold the throne themselves; that didn't change until Henry VIII died and declared his daughters heirs (partially due to the relative lack of male candidates, partially due to threat of foreign inheritance).

Henry VIII isn't marrying his baby niece; that's just not something that was done in England (and while they could theoretically get a dispensation, it would still be seen as extremely scandalous). Not to mention that literally every foreign power would be opposed. Unlike remarrying Catherine of Aragon, this marriage does nothing for an alliance with the Spanish (and English-Spanish relations were at a nadir at this point anyway, due to Henry VII siding with Philip of Habsburg in his feud with Ferdinand of Aragon), while the French will oppose it to get leverage; both have their own candidates they'd prefer.

Whatever will be decided will be decided by Henry VII, but he's not going to support such a young child (not even a teenager) and a woman as his heir. He is also politically sensitive enough to avoid such an incestuous marriage (especially one that can't possible be consummated for a long time anyway). He'll have an act of Parliament to confirm the line of succession (explicitly putting Henry VIII and his heirs first), and then arrange for a church career for his new granddaughter.
 

Cate13

Milites said:
I simply do not see Henry VIII marrying his niece. What's the sources for such a postulate? IMHO it would be far more controversial than simply getting hitched with his late brother's widow.
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Through modern eyes, marrying Catalina would make more sense, but avunculate marriages were not actually that odd for royalty of the time. Here are some marriages form the time period.
 
Milites

Milites

Cate13 said:
Through modern eyes, marrying Catalina would make more sense, but avunculate marriages were not actually that odd for royalty of the time. Here are some marriages form the time period.
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Sorry, I don't see it. Continental differences aside, like @Just a Rube said, it was simply not done. I think putting Arthur's daughter in a nunnery is a far more plausible solution. Henry VII 'murdering' his grand-daughter is even more preposterous.
 

Cate13

Milites said:
Henry VII 'murdering' his grand-daughter is even more preposterous.
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I totally agree with you there. One it harks back to the two princes in the tower and two the Tudor's wanted the blood line of John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster that Catherine had.

And you probably have a point about the continental difference; I couldn't find any record of avuncular marriage in England. But I still think the desire for the John of Gaunt bloodline and connections with Catherine's family would push HenryVII to betrothing Henry VIII and Elizabeth/Arthurina/Mary. Also, having just come out of a inheritance war, Henry VII doesn't want any doubt on whose the heir.
 

desmirelle

Since I think Henry Vii's step-father had a hand in murdering the princes in the tower, I don't think a 'crib death' for an inconvenient girl is beyond him or his mother or step-father.

ETA: It's just my opinion, so don't sidetrack the thread with it.
 

Just a Rube

desmirelle said:
Since I think Henry Vii's step-father had a hand in murdering the princes in the tower, I don't think a 'crib death' for an inconvenient girl is beyond him or his mother or step-father.

ETA: It's just my opinion, so don't sidetrack the thread with it.
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Whether he was or not, Henry VII was well aware that the murders a propaganda disaster for Richard; without the fallout from Richard's usurpation and the subsequent disappearances, Henry Tudor would still be an exile on the continent, and he was well aware of it. Likewise, avuncular marriages were not unheard of on the continent, but were seen as somewhat disreputable even there, and moreso in England (as noted, the rumor that Richard III was going to marry Elizabeth of York was also damaging to his reign, and notably Richard didn't go through with it even though it would have undercut the Tudor position pretty dramatically). While Henry VII was many things, he was also astutely aware of the importance of propaganda and public image, which would have ruled out murdering his own granddaughter, even if he was the sort of person to do such a thing (and notably, whatever his other traits, Henry VII does seem to have genuinely loved his family).

People are also overselling the importance of John of Gaunt's blood by this point. As heir, Henry VIII would be descended from John of Gaunt on both sides, and his descent from the house of York was of course quite solid. Additional Lancastrian blood was a nice bonus, but less important than a solid diplomatic footing in the three-way tussle that was developing between the Trastamara, Habsburgs and Valois. Notably, when Arthur died, Henry VII had been in no great hurry to arrange the remarriage, quibbling over dowries and toying with discarding Catherine in favor of various other continental brides.
 
Milites

Milites

desmirelle said:
Since I think Henry Vii's step-father had a hand in murdering the princes in the tower, I don't think a 'crib death' for an inconvenient girl is beyond him or his mother or step-father.
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If IIRC, Thomas Penn in his Winter King states that Henry VII was a quite devoted family man for the times. Killing his granddaughter is way off for him. It’s true that the Tudors lived in a time where the dynastic imperative was the alpha and omega, but the most likely way to deal with the matter of the succession is for the girl to enter a religious order and let Henry VIII step forward. Regardless of what supposed role the Earl of Derby played in the disappearance of the princes in the tower.
 
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The Professor

The Professor

I have to agree that Henry's not marrying his niece. While it solves the lineage issue it's a PR disaster and would only prompt another Yorkist uprising.
As said what will happen is a succession bill, raised by Henry VII and passed by Parliament, to place young Henry's line above her and hers. And there will be arrangements to ensure she doesn't have a line, probably a comfy church sinecure.
 

Criccieth

I'm going with the "no way is Henry VII letting his son marry his grandaughter" argument. As others have said, we are at this point only a few short years away from the scandal of there even being RUMOURS that Richard III might have been thinking of marrying his niece. The Tudor hold on the throne was far too tenuous to risk such a thing. And given that Aragon had been able to apply enough pressure on Henry VII to get Warwick and Warbeck both killed before they'd even send their daughter over to England. I also can't see Henry VII being willing to disinherit a child who, under English law, had a case for inheriting. Nor can I see Henry VII organising the murder of the child simply to more easily put his next-oldest son on the throne. The fact that Henry VII himself doesn't seem to have known whether or not Edward's boys were dead seems to argue against him having been prepared to kill children who had no blood relation to him two decades earlier, which makes it hard to imagine he'd be prepared to kill his own kin (not that I think Richard III did it either, but that's not the thread here)

What I can see is the hasty marriage of young Henry to another foreign princess, then starting to work on getting dispensation from the Pope to marry Arthur's daughter to Young Henry's oldest son, with the young couple co-ruling (as in OTL, William and Mary did many years later). Cousin marriage wasn't popular, but nor would the Pope want to see a return of the Cousin's War. When Arthur died, there were still several of the de la Poles living who would have seized on any chance to challenge the Tudor line.
 

Titania's Rose

We might also see Henry VII moving on the de la Poles, or even the Duke of York and the Dowager Princess of Wales doing so, during the little Princess Elizabeth of Wales' minority (if we go with Elizabeth as her name for now). How involved is Katherine going to be here? She's not the Queen of England but rather the Dowager Princess of Wales and mother of the future queen. Given her personality it's likely that she'll be involved in some fashion.

Uncle-niece marriages were more common on the Iberian peninsula and Katherine might not be adverse to the idea if it secures her daughter the English throne. But the English themselves aren't going to be keen on it. More than likely, Henry VII will be scouring Europe for a princess that'll be old enough to become pregnant by the time the Duke of York becomes old enough to consummate the marriage.
 

wwbgdiaslt

Gone Fishin'
Titania's Rose said:
How involved is Katherine going to be here? She's not the Queen of England but rather the Dowager Princess of Wales and mother of the future queen.
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As a side note - we have little precedence (ie, none) as far as I can tell for the title of Dowager Princess of Wales. However, we do have some suggestion that they have considered investing the heir apparent - if female - with the title of Princess of Wales in her own right (Henry VIII made Mary that in all but title, they considered making Elizabeth II it in the forties upon marriage).

I'd propose that this happens here - Elizabeth is made Princess of Wales in her own right, any spouse is made Prince of Wales jure uxoris, and perhaps Katherine uses Dowager Duchess of Cornwall (as whilst the Prince/Princess goes to the Heir Presumptive, the Duchy of Cornwall only gets given to the son of the monarch).

Perhaps even expanding to a grandiose, Katherine of Aragon, Dowager Duchess of Cornwall, Dowager Countess of Chester, Mother of Wales.
 

isabella

I still think who a wedding between Henry and his niece would not be so opposed in England (the supposed Richard III/Elizabeth of York match a) was likely only a rumor without any foundation b) was scandalous for a variety of other reasons who had nothing to do with an uncle/niece match)
 

isabella

I still think who a wedding between Henry and his niece would not be so opposed in England (the supposed Richard III/Elizabeth of York match a) was likely only a rumor without any foundation b) was scandalous for a variety of other reasons who had nothing to do with an uncle/niece match)
 

Tyler96

isabella said:
I still think who a wedding between Henry and his niece would not be so opposed in England (the supposed Richard III/Elizabeth of York match a) was likely only a rumor without any foundation b) was scandalous for a variety of other reasons who had nothing to do with an uncle/niece match)
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Yeah, the whole "Richard murdered his wife to marry his niece" rumours didn't help with the public reaction to the supposed match.

Richard also had two of his most trusted councillors (William Catesby and Richard Ratcliffe) adamantly opposed to the idea, would there be equally influential councillors voicing equally vociferous opposition in the Tudor regime?
 
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