Argentina less restrained during the Falklands War

[Derek Pullem]

The American public tolerated a great worse at the hands of other nations in the same time period. We didn't see the US launching a war to free hostages in Iran, Lebanon, onboard cruise ships, in aircraft. The US was in 1982 very much in the grip of the malaise that accompanied the loss and defeat in Vietnam. It wasn't until they found someone they could defeat easily in 1983 that the US Government starts to throw it off.

As to whether or not annoying the American public will help the Argentine cause should be weighed against whether or not this would help the Argentines win the war, don't you think?

Reagan put troops on the ground in Lebanon pretty darned quick. That was only months after Falklands. He went to war over Grenada when the immediate issue seemed to be the fate of a handful of American students.
Weinburger offered the UK the use of a US carrier later in the conflict.

Even if America did not directly intervene in the war after an attack on Ascension island it would as a minimum assist with any repairs to the air base and accelerate it's economic embargo of Argentina and logistic assistance to the UK. Argentina gets all this for a few weeks delay in the task force attack?

Besides - how exactly are lightly armed marines going to put out of use a 10,000 ft runway for any length of time. they are going to struggle to carry enough ordannce to do any serious damage

 

[SunilTanna]

Not quite. The Argentines who were sent to garrison the islands were largely conscripts with a leavening of special forces. The best Argentine troops were kept on the mainland, to indeed defend against a possible Chiliean attack. Remember, Argentina and Chile had been having an on-again, off-again border dispute for years before the Falklands/Malvinas. Sending regular troops to the Falklands/Malvinas would have made a "close run thing" even more close run.

I think it's a myth that the Argentines had a bunch of great ground troops they didnt use. The troops on the islands were pretty well equipped in terms of hardware for example, better than the British.

The reality is that they had no troops with experience of fighting a modern war. No institutional memory of war. Terrible supply. An army command that basically viewed their strategy as purely defensive before going down fighting, and even the special forces whose main experience was throwing nuns out helicopters and the like.

They didn't even try to put up anything other than purely defensive resistance - no aggressive patrols, no counterattacks, etc., not even by special forces - because it was simply beyond their capabilities, imagination, and experience.

 

[SunilTanna]

Besides - how exactly are lightly armed marines going to put out of use a 10,000 ft runway for any length of time. they are going to struggle to carry enough ordannce to do any serious damage

Even assuming damage to the runway:

There's probably runway repair and construction equipment on the task force. The British had plans to repair Stanley runway, and to build a runway ("stone aircraft carrier") on West Falkland.

Even, if there's no runway repair equipment on Ascension or on the task force, some gets quickly dispatched from the UK. Problem solved.

The difference is that whereas the Falklands are isolated and blockaded by the RN, so the runway can't be repaired or extended.... Ascension isn't isolated at all, and the British can bring in whatever they want.

 

[SunilTanna]

Yeah, but you could say the same about South Georgia in OTL.

Argentina has long claimed sovereignty over South Georgia (as well as the Falklands and South Sandwich Islands).

It's never made a claim to Ascension.

 

[Rickshaw]

Reagan put troops on the ground in Lebanon pretty darned quick. That was only months after Falklands. He went to war over Grenada when the immediate issue seemed to be the fate of a handful of American students.

The students were a convenient cause celebre created post ipso facto. If they were the prime motivator for the attack in Grenada why were the liberated so late in the operation?

Weinburger offered the UK the use of a US carrier later in the conflict.

I don't think it got to the point of a serious offer. It was an idea which was put forward but knocked back because of the difficulties of using such a carrier with the manpower and time available.

Even if America did not directly intervene in the war after an attack on Ascension island it would as a minimum assist with any repairs to the air base and accelerate it's economic embargo of Argentina and logistic assistance to the UK. Argentina gets all this for a few weeks delay in the task force attack?

The timetable of the liberation of the Falklands/Malvinas was set by the weather. The Task Force raced against time and the South Atlantic winter. A few weeks delay might have been all that was required to assure the Argentines retained control of the islands.

Besides - how exactly are lightly armed marines going to put out of use a 10,000 ft runway for any length of time. they are going to struggle to carry enough ordannce to do any serious damage

You'll note I didn't mention the use of explosives. I referred to the use of earth moving plant - bulldozers and other pieces of engineering plant which they could use to literally rip the runway and hard standing to shreds. I also mentioned the use of the Engineers to do it as well, as part of the strike force. You did read the opening post?

 

[Rickshaw]

Even assuming damage to the runway:

There's probably runway repair and construction equipment on the task force. The British had plans to repair Stanley runway, and to build a runway ("stone aircraft carrier") on West Falkland.

Even, if there's no runway repair equipment on Ascension or on the task force, some gets quickly dispatched from the UK. Problem solved.

Any such equipment on the island would have been destroyed. Remember what the objective of the Argentine raid was?

The difference is that whereas the Falklands are isolated and blockaded by the RN, so the runway can't be repaired or extended.... Ascension isn't isolated at all, and the British can bring in whatever they want.

The British did intend to repair Stanley however that equipment sailed in the second tranche of the Task Force. That meant a longer delay, while it was brought down to Ascension and then it would have to be unloaded and the runway and hard standing rebuilt. Materials would have had to be brought in to do it as well. Wideawake is not a small airstrip like Stanley. Ascension is smaller than the Falklands/Malvinas.

In some ways even more important than the loss of the runway would have been the loss of the hard standing. Have you ever seen pictures of how crowded Wideawake was at the height of the operations there? Loss of the hard standing would have slowed operations considerably. No place to park aircraft. No place to unload and transload.

 

[Rickshaw]

Argentina has long claimed sovereignty over South Georgia (as well as the Falklands and South Sandwich Islands).

It's never made a claim to Ascension.

Its not claiming Ascension. It is merely raiding an enemy military installation in an effort to prevent its use by the enemy to attack Argentina and its rightful possessions!

 

[abc123]

It's pretty unlikely, because apart from the danger to Americans, the Argentines simply weren't expecting a military response from the UK at all. They wouldn't have invaded the Falklands in the first place if they had been. The whole thing was supposedly to be a bloodless or near-bloodless coup, accepted by the international community as an anti-colonial limited operation, and modelled on the Indian invasion of Goa.

This is the most important reason.

 

[abc123]

You'll note I didn't mention the use of explosives. I referred to the use of earth moving plant - bulldozers and other pieces of engineering plant which they could use to literally rip the runway and hard standing to shreds. I also mentioned the use of the Engineers to do it as well, as part of the strike force. You did read the opening post?

I'm not a construction engineer, but I'm pretty certain that you can't destroy a runway with a few bulldozers.
You need explosive. A lot of explosive.

 

[abc123]

I think it's a myth that the Argentines had a bunch of great ground troops they didnt use. The troops on the islands were pretty well equipped in terms of hardware for example, better than the British.

The reality is that they had no troops with experience of fighting a modern war. No institutional memory of war. Terrible supply. An army command that basically viewed their strategy as purely defensive before going down fighting, and even the special forces whose main experience was throwing nuns out helicopters and the like.

They didn't even try to put up anything other than purely defensive resistance - no aggressive patrols, no counterattacks, etc., not even by special forces - because it was simply beyond their capabilities, imagination, and experience.

In defence of the Argentinians, I must say that niether I would send conscripts with 3-4 months of training against elite british proffesional forces. Paras, Marines and Gurkhas are simply better then them.
Only thing that they were capable was defence.
Also, the most important thing is that they didn't expected war at all.
Because then they would:
a) not have started war
b) prepare much better for war
Whole point is that attack on the Falklands was a political war, meant for distracting Argentinians that were unsatisfied with bad life and dictatorship, otherwise they wouldn't have lost the war at all.

 

[SunilTanna]

In some ways even more important than the loss of the runway would have been the loss of the hard standing. Have you ever seen pictures of how crowded Wideawake was at the height of the operations there? Loss of the hard standing would have slowed operations considerably. No place to park aircraft. No place to unload and transload.

How many weeks are the Argentine work crew supposed to hang around, while they meticulously unload their demolition equipment, and then use pneumatic drills and bull dozers to slowly demolish the thick airfield concrete? (I don't know exactly how thick at Ascension, but probably between 1 and 4 feet thick as that's the typical range on an airfield)

Gosh it's lucky for them that British wouldn't do anything in the meantime, and nor would the 800 or 900 loyal islanders.

 

[SunilTanna]

In defence of the Argentinians, I must say that niether I would send conscripts with 3-4 months of training against elite british proffesional forces. Paras, Marines and Gurkhas are simply better then them.
Only thing that they were capable was defence.
Also, the most important thing is that they didn't expected war at all.
Because then they would:
a) not have started war
b) prepare much better for war
Whole point is that attack on the Falklands was a political war, meant for distracting Argentinians that were unsatisfied with bad life and dictatorship, otherwise they wouldn't have lost the war at all.

No defence is required or needed. The Argentine conscripts were simply victims of the idiotic fascist dictatorship that ruled their country at that time.

 

[Astrodragon]

So lets see... your slow (almost certainly less than 20kt) convoy is heading a LONG way back to Argentina.
The RN submarine service thanks you for the lovely targets presented to its nuclear subs which will rapidly overtake them.

 

[abc123]

How many weeks are the Argentine work crew supposed to hang around, while they meticulously unload their demolition equipment, and then use pneumatic drills and bull dozers to slowly demolish the thick airfield concrete? (I don't know exactly how thick at Ascension, but probably between 1 and 4 feet thick as that's the typical range on an airfield)

Gosh it's lucky for them that British wouldn't do anything in the meantime, and nor would the 800 or 900 loyal islanders.

I'm not sure about thickness of runway, but below 1 meter is surely isn't.
Probably even more.

 

[Rickshaw]

How many weeks are the Argentine work crew supposed to hang around, while they meticulously unload their demolition equipment, and then use pneumatic drills and bull dozers to slowly demolish the thick airfield concrete? (I don't know exactly how thick at Ascension, but probably between 1 and 4 feet thick as that's the typical range on an airfield)

Not had much experience with plant, have you? 4 feet thick? Wow. Never seen a runway or hard standing that thick. 30 cm is the norm in my experience.

It would not take weeks to either unload across the beach or to undertake the work.

Gosh it's lucky for them that British wouldn't do anything in the meantime, and nor would the 800 or 900 loyal islanders.

The "loyal islanders" would be rounded up. I suppose the Boy Scout group could be considered a threat, along with the 17 RAF staff.

As to what could the British do in a space of a few days except a few long range bombing missions. It would be ironic that they would be bombing and damaging the very installation which is so vital to their plans.

 

[Rickshaw]

So lets see... your slow (almost certainly less than 20kt) convoy is heading a LONG way back to Argentina.
The RN submarine service thanks you for the lovely targets presented to its nuclear subs which will rapidly overtake them.

They have to find them. Then of course, nice, noisy nuclear submarines, travelling at high speed underwater. Mmm, wonder what the ASW assets will be doing?

The assumption is that it will all be the RN's way. I don't assume there won't be casualties - on either side. Unfortunate but the assumption that the RN can attack at will - considering they had to use WWII torpedoes to sink the Belgrano, fired from close range - is a bit outlandish.

 

[Rickshaw]

I'm not a construction engineer, but I'm pretty certain that you can't destroy a runway with a few bulldozers.
You need explosive. A lot of explosive.

Sorry, you're wrong. A D9 with a ripper would make very short work of a runway.

 

[Grimm Reaper]

Given that the RN subs were able to come and go as they please while asking London whether they should try to find the carrier or take out the General Belgrano while the Argentines had no idea what was following them around it isn't so outlandish at all.


Argentina recognized British ownership of South Georgia as far back as the 1950s, specifically separating the Argentine position on South Georgia from the one on the Falklands.

 

[Rickshaw]

Given that the RN subs were able to come and go as they please while asking London whether they should try to find the carrier or take out the General Belgrano while the Argentines had no idea what was following them around it isn't so outlandish at all.

HMS CONQUEROR was creeping around, being very quiet. Submarines chasing down the mid-Atlantic at maximum revs would not be. That they had to get to within less than 1,000 metres from the BELGRANO to fire a WWII torpedo at her rather suggests that they would not be running at speed. So, the claim that they could out run the Argentine carrier force is somewhat dubious IMHO. Of course, the Argentines could always run into Brazil and allow themselves to be interned for the duration. Now that would, I think have pissed off HM Government somewhat...

 

[SunilTanna]

Not had much experience with plant, have you? 4 feet thick? Wow. Never seen a runway or hard standing that thick. 30 cm is the norm in my experience.

It would not take weeks to either unload across the beach or to undertake the work.

The "loyal islanders" would be rounded up. I suppose the Boy Scout group could be considered a threat, along with the 17 RAF staff.

As to what could the British do in a space of a few days except a few long range bombing missions. It would be ironic that they would be bombing and damaging the very installation which is so vital to their plans.

There are hundreds of islanders to round-up and intern which is another task requiring more men and more time.

As far as concrete is concerned: 1 foot = 30cm.

The runway at Wideawake is 10,000 feet long, and 150 feet wide.

Just to give an idea of scale: The 1983 extensions to Wideawake used 75,000 cubic metres of concrete, and 250,000 tons of concrete aggregate, and that was just to add a taxiway and an apron. This is not something you can make a significant impact on in a few hours or days work.

Are the Argentines are going to hang around waiting for a SSN to arrive, to sink every one of the ships, and then volunteer to be left as POWS?