Are ASB needed for this British tank spec?

marathag

Banned
Problem with sourcing a diesel engine is that the UK had a vehicle tax at the time, the RAC horse-power formula, which distorted the market and alongside not starting a proper motorway market until well after WWII discouraged the development and production of large diesel engines. On the AEC front the Matilda II did use a pair of linked diesel engines from either AEC or Leyland as its propulsion but since their combined output was only 190 hp it wasn't any great shakes. That's generally why I usually suggest the converted Rolls-Royce Kestrel - even if you're overly cautious and only expect it to give 400 hp output rather than the 475 hp it generated in 1941 that's still double what the linked diesels made. I want to say that most of the British military lorries used petrol engines as well so it would cut down on logistic issues unlike diesel.

Rolls Royce converted their post WWI V12 Condor to Diesel in 1932
500hp in aircraft tests. weighed 1500 pounds.

about twice as heavy as other 4-500HP gas engines

Napier had the 800HP Culverin and Cutlass, but the Culverin was very large.

As in very tall, almost 15" taller than the Wright R-975 used in the Lee and Sherman, and 5" more than the Wright G-200 used in the M6 Heavy tank.

Like an early Leyland L60, used in the Chieftain based off of the Jumo 204
 
The 20-pounder wasn't around in 1940, the 25-pounder was. Also, the Australians used dual 25-pounders to mimic the recoil of the 17 pounder for when they redesigned the Sentinel turret.
A 25pdr would be a competent AT gun (towed ones were used in this role in the Western Desert campaign as an emergency measure) and very good at dealing with bunkers etc. I could see a split between 17pdr and 25pdr medium tanks similar to the OTL 76mm/105mm Sherman combination.
 
How about a 25-pounder?
Whilst 25-pounder batteries did receive a small number of anti-tank shells as a just in case measure it probably wouldn't have been a good idea as a dedicated tank gun. The main problem that I can see is its much lower muzzle velocity in comparison to the anti-tank gun, higher velocity generally means the shell traveling a longer distance in a flatter trajectory, making it easier to hit targets, as opposed to the artillery shells more curved one.

Edit: Missed RLBH's post.
 
A 25pdr would be a competent AT gun (towed ones were used in this role in the Western Desert campaign as an emergency measure) and very good at dealing with bunkers etc. I could see a split between 17pdr and 25pdr medium tanks similar to the OTL 76mm/105mm Sherman combination.

Whilst 25-pounder batteries did receive a small number of anti-tank shells as a just in case measure it probably wouldn't have been a good idea as a dedicated tank gun. The main problem that I can see is its much lower muzzle velocity in comparison to the anti-tank gun, higher velocity generally means the shell traveling a longer distance in a flatter trajectory, making it easier to hit targets, as opposed to the artillery shells more curved one.

Edit: Missed RLBH's post.


I wonder if HESH shells could make an earlier appearance - lets face it a 87.6mm HESH or HEP shell is going to make a serious mess of any WW2 tank or AFV and is effective against hardened buildings and fortifications and can even be used for general 'HE' use.

Has the advantage of not being reliant on velocity etc
 
I wonder if HESH shells could make an earlier appearance - lets face it a 87.6mm HESH or HEP shell is going to make a serious mess of any WW2 tank or AFV and is effective against hardened buildings and fortifications and can even be used for general 'HE' use.

Has the advantage of not being reliant on velocity etc
Wouldn't need to be that much earlier, they saw service during WW2 for demolition work.
 

Sior

Banned
Whilst 25-pounder batteries did receive a small number of anti-tank shells as a just in case measure it probably wouldn't have been a good idea as a dedicated tank gun. The main problem that I can see is its much lower muzzle velocity in comparison to the anti-tank gun, higher velocity generally means the shell traveling a longer distance in a flatter trajectory, making it easier to hit targets, as opposed to the artillery shells more curved one.

Edit: Missed RLBH's post.


Why fit one when two will do?

01873.jpg



http://members.shaw.ca/millerww2/ww2/history/InDefenseofBritishTanks.htm

Well thought out article about WW2 British tanks.
 
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Wouldn't need to be that much earlier, they saw service during WW2 for demolition work.

Well if a Vickers built "Heavy A10" universal tank was fielded mounting a 'short' 25 pounder (or similiar) as standard in a 3 man turret and was available with HESH Shells in 1938....then Gentlemen I think our work here is done!
 
Whilst 25-pounder batteries did receive a small number of anti-tank shells as a just in case measure it probably wouldn't have been a good idea as a dedicated tank gun. The main problem that I can see is its much lower muzzle velocity in comparison to the anti-tank gun, higher velocity generally means the shell traveling a longer distance in a flatter trajectory, making it easier to hit targets, as opposed to the artillery shells more curved one.

Edit: Missed RLBH's post.

The anti tank round used the charge super increment, and the guns were altered to have a muzzle break for use of that charge. (The early model 25 pdr have no brake).

The problem with the 25 pounder as a tank round is that it's a howitzer, with separate loading (round and brass case containing the charge). The case came with max charge (not super) loaded, and the detachment fished out any unwanted cordite bags as needed for the mission. Charge super came separately, and was plonked on top of the felt liner that sat on top of the charges.

It had a very fast rate of fire, even us army cadets got the hang of it fairly quickly on our course at Larkhill camp back in the early 1970s. However, that required room for the loader to operate alongside operating his wooden "plunger" to first shove the round up the spout, and the second loader/ammo number to then throw in the brass. It also required the loader to manually trip the breech just before the rearmost of the recoil so the brass was thrown out by the rearwards motion of the barrel.

Post our live shoot, all the unused cordite bags were put in a pile on some chalky ground, and set off with a flare. Quite impressive!.

None of that would be possible in the confines of an enclosed turret. Nor does it seem to have been the case with the SP Bishop(?) - which seems to have been loaded by a guy kneeling on the back deck, with the rear of the mount open (it was not a turret). So Bishop probably had a fairly modest ROF, as well as being limited in maximum range due to the mount's low elevation.

For a tank gun based on it, you would need a single piece round with the brass crimped on. Not impossible to do. However even with charge super, it was not a particularly high velocity weapon. Therefore its use in the A/T role in the desert was in extremis only.

A HESH round was developed for it post war.

All in all - the 25pdr is probably not a valid path to go down, if looking for a tank killing gun. In addition, it was only just coming into service at the start of the war - 18 pounders were still in service, and there was a hybrid 18/25 pounder mount using the older gun chassis. So its a priority item for rearming the field artillery and unlikely to be diverted to tanks.

It would probably have been better for an inter-war tank design to use the good old 18 pounder as its gun since it is going out of service. That is about the same sort of gun as the US 75mm, which was just a version of the French 75 field gun of WW1. Against early war tanks, it would do the trick perfectly well. So design a tank that uses the 18 pounder, and use barrels that were still in adequate condition. It throws a decent HE round, and would have adequate A/T characteristics - the US 75 served through WW2 after all, only being regarded as lacking in AP poke in about '44 onwards. It would tide you over whilst the 17 pounder and 77mm are being developed. And if you had an 18 pounder tank gun, you may not see the need of the 6 pounder as a tank gun (still useful as an infantry ATG though).
 
This AA gun has a muzzle velocity almost half that of the 17 pdr. It's 16 lb. projective traveled at top initial MV of 2,000 feet per second, meaning it would take several seconds before reaching any aircraft. In the anti-tank role, I don't think flat trajectory fire would be possible. In comparison, the German flak 88 had a MV of 2,700 fps.

IMO this isn't needed regardless. Prototype with the 2pdr, design to the 17 pdr and introduce with the 6 pdr.
 
The anti tank round used the charge super increment, and the guns were altered to have a muzzle break for use of that charge. (The early model 25 pdr have no brake).

The problem with the 25 pounder as a tank round is that it's a howitzer, with separate loading (round and brass case containing the charge). The case came with max charge (not super) loaded, and the detachment fished out any unwanted cordite bags as needed for the mission. Charge super came separately, and was plonked on top of the felt liner that sat on top of the charges.

It had a very fast rate of fire, even us army cadets got the hang of it fairly quickly on our course at Larkhill camp back in the early 1970s. However, that required room for the loader to operate alongside operating his wooden "plunger" to first shove the round up the spout, and the second loader/ammo number to then throw in the brass. It also required the loader to manually trip the breech just before the rearmost of the recoil so the brass was thrown out by the rearwards motion of the barrel.

Post our live shoot, all the unused cordite bags were put in a pile on some chalky ground, and set off with a flare. Quite impressive!.

None of that would be possible in the confines of an enclosed turret. Nor does it seem to have been the case with the SP Bishop(?) - which seems to have been loaded by a guy kneeling on the back deck, with the rear of the mount open (it was not a turret). So Bishop probably had a fairly modest ROF, as well as being limited in maximum range due to the mount's low elevation.

For a tank gun based on it, you would need a single piece round with the brass crimped on. Not impossible to do. However even with charge super, it was not a particularly high velocity weapon. Therefore its use in the A/T role in the desert was in extremis only.

A HESH round was developed for it post war.

All in all - the 25pdr is probably not a valid path to go down, if looking for a tank killing gun. In addition, it was only just coming into service at the start of the war - 18 pounders were still in service, and there was a hybrid 18/25 pounder mount using the older gun chassis. So its a priority item for rearming the field artillery and unlikely to be diverted to tanks.

It would probably have been better for an inter-war tank design to use the good old 18 pounder as its gun since it is going out of service. That is about the same sort of gun as the US 75mm, which was just a version of the French 75 field gun of WW1. Against early war tanks, it would do the trick perfectly well. So design a tank that uses the 18 pounder, and use barrels that were still in adequate condition. It throws a decent HE round, and would have adequate A/T characteristics - the US 75 served through WW2 after all, only being regarded as lacking in AP poke in about '44 onwards. It would tide you over whilst the 17 pounder and 77mm are being developed. And if you had an 18 pounder tank gun, you may not see the need of the 6 pounder as a tank gun (still useful as an infantry ATG though).


The 18 pounder and / or 3" gun do make sense for a 1930s time period

The 18 pounder gun was 9 x CWT or about 450 KGs

The 3" 20 CWT gun is about 1000 KGs but does have the advantage of a short recoil

While their would be a limited number of both of these weapons prior to 1937+ Britain is unlikely to need more than 150 -200 tanks thus equipped (1 Tank Brigade / 3 Battalions)
 
Britain is unlikely to need more than 150 -200 tanks thus equipped (1 Tank Brigade / 3 Battalions)
200 tanks as I described them in the OP (3 man turret, radios, etc.) with Sior's suggested 3" gun will smash up the Panzer IIs and IIIs mostly found in France in May 1940.

Now we just need a good and innovative leader to sort out the best tactics for using tanks. Without ASB, who and how can teach the Brits to use their tanks effectively? Too bad Worthington was a low ranker back in Canada during this formative time.
 
I would assume that new machines mean that new tactics and strategies have been decided on already.
 
Tony Williams in his article as noted in the earlier post, no6 by Sior, gives a very logical and well reasoned argument for a development of UK tank guns based on the existing Naval 6 pounder then going onto the 3" 20cwt AA gun as an alternative. In the 1920's and 30's Vickers at Barrow made various AA and Field guns based on the 3" modified to 75mm for overseas customers. As a PoD have a potential customer request a tank design from Vickers using either the 6lb of the 3"/75mm gun. This could even become a failed vanity project for said nation due to the depression in the early 30's. Have the prototype tested by the British Army and make a big impression. It Might be a Bit late for the Minister for the co-ordination of Defence to stick his oar in in 1936 and decree that the army will have one universal tank rather than Infantry,Cruisers et al. Not convinced this could ever happen but the economies of using up existing ammo and being able to build the guns without the cost of R and D might make it attractive to the Government if not the Army. Especially if this could be contrived to predate the introduction of the 2lbr though this seems unlikely.
 
This AA gun has a muzzle velocity almost half that of the 17 pdr. It's 16 lb. projective traveled at top initial MV of 2,000 feet per second, meaning it would take several seconds before reaching any aircraft. In the anti-tank role, I don't think flat trajectory fire would be possible. In comparison, the German flak 88 had a MV of 2,700 fps.

The 16lb shell was WWI the shell usually fired by this time was a 12lb shell at 2,500fps. The 3" 20cwt fired a 13lb AP round at 2,500fps and could defeat 80mm of armour at 1,000 yards
 
200 tanks as I described them in the OP (3 man turret, radios, etc.) with Sior's suggested 3" gun will smash up the Panzer IIs and IIIs mostly found in France in May 1940.

Now we just need a good and innovative leader to sort out the best tactics for using tanks. Without ASB, who and how can teach the Brits to use their tanks effectively? Too bad Worthington was a low ranker back in Canada during this formative time.

Given the short recoil and established legacy of the 3" and given that it can very likely shoot a decent sized HE shell makes this the best choice I have seen in this thread so far

I would assume that new machines mean that new tactics and strategies have been decided on already.

IMO this could only really occour if the Experimental Mechinised Force had become an established formation of the british Army into the 30s

Tony Williams in his article as noted in the earlier post, no6 by Sior, gives a very logical and well reasoned argument for a development of UK tank guns based on the existing Naval 6 pounder then going onto the 3" 20cwt AA gun as an alternative. In the 1920's and 30's Vickers at Barrow made various AA and Field guns based on the 3" modified to 75mm for overseas customers. As a PoD have a potential customer request a tank design from Vickers using either the 6lb of the 3"/75mm gun. This could even become a failed vanity project for said nation due to the depression in the early 30's. Have the prototype tested by the British Army and make a big impression. It Might be a Bit late for the Minister for the co-ordination of Defence to stick his oar in in 1936 and decree that the army will have one universal tank rather than Infantry,Cruisers et al. Not convinced this could ever happen but the economies of using up existing ammo and being able to build the guns without the cost of R and D might make it attractive to the Government if not the Army. Especially if this could be contrived to predate the introduction of the 2lbr though this seems unlikely.

Tonys article makes a lot of sense and wedded with a continued development of armour tactics by continuing the Experimental mechinised force etc into the 30s and even a continuation of the Tank Design Department in some form from 1923 (when it was closed) should improve British Tank designs throughout the 30s.

Of course this would not be happening in a vacumn and the gradual improvement of British Tank designs would influence the other tank building nations in the 30s
 
The problem with the Liberty isn't that it's drastically underpowered for 1940 - it's fine - it's that it is a terrible, terrible engine; absolute bloody murder to maintain, especially if it's not totally accessible (e.g. under a shedload of armour plate), never designed to be run for extended periods of time, fiddly as anything, and a right bastard to cool. Pretty good for 1917, but look how well the Renault FT-17 tank (a bloody brilliant design for its day) performed in combat in 1940...

Hate to say it, but Nuffield ain't the problem (leastways, not in 1940), the Liberty was plenty powerful enough to wreck the drive systems on the Matilda II and Valentine, which were equipped with even less powerful engines than that one, often only about 200 hp, vs the Liberty's 340 hp. Now sure by 1942/3 you're in trouble, but in 1940, no it was a good engine at that point.

How about a 25 pounder?

Actually, it will often slightly increase the amount of internal volume (the conventional designs had a step it which the slope would smooth over), but at the cost of making the driver's sight and bow machine-gun harder to integrate.
 

Sior

Banned
The problem with the Liberty isn't that it's drastically underpowered for 1940 - it's fine - it's that it is a terrible, terrible engine; absolute bloody murder to maintain, especially if it's not totally accessible (e.g. under a shedload of armour plate), never designed to be run for extended periods of time, fiddly as anything, and a right bastard to cool. Pretty good for 1917, but look how well the Renault FT-17 tank (a bloody brilliant design for its day) performed in combat in 1940...

The Liberty Engine lost 20% of its produced hp to the terrible chain drive system and overheated in British winters!
 
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