Ancient Jewish Refuge in Madagascar

[GdwnsnHo]

Sorry, but it does. For Jews, even more so at the time than today, the promised land is all that matters. Even the Messiah ranks a distant second after the yearning to be in "The Land" promised by God.

Unless he is truly convinced the promised land has changed location, a devout Jew will always try to remain as close as possible from Palestine/Juda.

Fair point - I didn't exclude the idea of a Promised Land in its entirety - that is still there in Palestine/Judea, or lands bordering the Red Sea - which would make Madagascar an additional Promised Land.

I do have an issue with it however, if the premise of the heresy/variant of the faith is that basic premise, you couldn't be a faithful follower without acknowledging that exploring and settling the rest of the Promised Land(s).

After that, in the long term, the members may eventually be less pious, and therefore go where the money is. Controlling the trade in the Indian Ocean is a fantastic opportunity for opportunists of any bent.

I would love a timeline about an ancient Empire centered in the Indian Ocean, encompassing East Africa, Madagascar, India and Austronesia.

Weeee, that is a large landmass, that is one hell of an Empire. I could see (in extreme circumstances) a federation/league of like-minded polities being seeded in the late ancient, or classical period (or whenever the monsoons are mastered).

 

[alternatehistory tree]

Well, I said they leave early in the Bar Kochba Revolt, so lets say they make landfall in Madagascar around 135 in the Common Era with 500-800 people. I am leaving this fairly open, though with a bias toward "success" of some sort. "Everybody dies within a few years" wouldn't make a very exciting timeline!

Well they might die out however the jaws might just spread their religion in Africa and THAT would be an interesting TL...

 

[Martinus Paduei]

Well, a lot of posts to respond to.


Mario: Not a problem. "Jew" versus "Jewish" is a subtle distinction, and your English is far better than my Spanish, which is mostly confined to menu items and obscenities! Anyway, I think even if the climate were wetter, it wouldn't be all that much wetter, and the Judeans were expanding into the drier part of the island. For the sake of argument, let's just say that the Judeans arrived in a comparatively dry period, and if things get wetter in a generation or two, they had time to adapt, and to spread toward the drier southwest part of the island.

It is not significant to the narrative, but how do you know about the "personality" of elephant birds? They died out centuries ago, well before any written records. As to rice, I am not particularly worried about exactly when it will show up--it definitely will, but to my mind, the Judeans already have a more than satisfactory agricultural package ITTL.

Though there are some advocates for Austronesians first making landfall up to six hundred years earlier, there is only very sketchy evidence for arrival of Austronesians prior to the fourth century CE. I am basically splitting the difference by having them arrive more or less simultaneously with the Judeans. And again, since this is on the optimistic side of reasonableness, I am looking at fairly peaceful relations between the two groups up through my latest TL post. Perhaps not the most likely turn of events, but certainly not ASB.


fi11222, the Judeans had an excellent reason to flee and flee far away. They were worried that the Romans would kill them. Their initial destination (Yemen) proved to not be a good option. Ending up in Madagascar was a (happy) accident. So no initial prophet necessary.


GdwnsnHo and fi11222: Having a far away island, or many faraway lands all being the "Promised Land" would be an alien thought to almost any Jew, then or now. Moreover, the beginnings of the Diaspora predate this time period by centuries. While the Jews of the time would certainly have an affinity for their homeland, going back to persecution or possible death at the hands of the Romans (who, while not giving Jerusalem and the province of Judea the "full Carthage", certainly came close) was not a choice many would care to make. That said, I think the Judeans wouldn't be averse to calling Madagascar the "Blessed Isle" or something like that. I think I may have just found a name for the nation. Anyone know how to say that in Hebrew?


Mario and GdwnsnHo: I don't see an empire or federation/league that big forming any time soon. An eventual possibility, I suppose. I do not have a preconceived idea of how this will end up.


alternatehistory tree, the Judeans won't be dying out ITTL. And their religion is already spreading and will continue to do so.

 

[alternatehistory tree]

Well, a lot of posts to respond to.


Mario: Not a problem. "Jew" versus "Jewish" is a subtle distinction, and your English is far better than my Spanish, which is mostly confined to menu items and obscenities! Anyway, I think even if the climate were wetter, it wouldn't be all that much wetter, and the Judeans were expanding into the drier part of the island. For the sake of argument, let's just say that the Judeans arrived in a comparatively dry period, and if things get wetter in a generation or two, they had time to adapt, and to spread toward the drier southwest part of the island.

It is not significant to the narrative, but how do you know about the "personality" of elephant birds? They died out centuries ago, well before any written records. As to rice, I am not particularly worried about exactly when it will show up--it definitely will, but to my mind, the Judeans already have a more than satisfactory agricultural package ITTL.

Though there are some advocates for Austronesians first making landfall up to six hundred years earlier, there is only very sketchy evidence for arrival of Austronesians prior to the fourth century CE. I am basically splitting the difference by having them arrive more or less simultaneously with the Judeans. And again, since this is on the optimistic side of reasonableness, I am looking at fairly peaceful relations between the two groups up through my latest TL post. Perhaps not the most likely turn of events, but certainly not ASB.


fi11222, the Judeans had an excellent reason to flee and flee far away. They were worried that the Romans would kill them. Their initial destination (Yemen) proved to not be a good option. Ending up in Madagascar was a (happy) accident. So no initial prophet necessary.


GdwnsnHo and fi11222: Having a far away island, or many faraway lands all being the "Promised Land" would be an alien thought to almost any Jew, then or now. Moreover, the beginnings of the Diaspora predate this time period by centuries. While the Jews of the time would certainly have an affinity for their homeland, going back to persecution or possible death at the hands of the Romans (who, while not giving Jerusalem and the province of Judea the "full Carthage", certainly came close) was not a choice many would care to make. That said, I think the Judeans wouldn't be averse to calling Madagascar the "Blessed Isle" or something like that. I think I may have just found a name for the nation. Anyone know how to say that in Hebrew?


Mario and GdwnsnHo: I don't see an empire or federation/league that big forming any time soon. An eventual possibility, I suppose. I do not have a preconceived idea of how this will end up.


alternatehistory tree, the Judeans won't be dying out ITTL. And their religion is already spreading and will continue to do so.

The Judean religion will survive. But what I ment not in Madagascar in south Africa. Vinland failed to survive even without tropical diseases. The people in Madagascar will likely be wiped out. However some of the population would survive in south/east Africa and spread their religion. Also that means Jewish Indochina.

 

[Mario]

It is not significant to the narrative, but how do you know about the "personality" of elephant birds? They died out centuries ago, well before any written records. As to rice, I am not particularly worried about exactly when it will show up--it definitely will, but to my mind, the Judeans already have a more than satisfactory agricultural package ITTL.

From subfossil remains, it is assumed that elephant birds did not form herds and lived solitary lifes. The most recent subfossils came from remote and isolated areas that were swamps at the time.

According to Malagasy folklore, elephant birds were very cryptic creatures difficult to see, and this gave them a status of semi-sacred being. It seems that ancient Malagasy did not hunt them as massively as Maori did with the moas due to these religious considerations, but they did collect many of their eggs. The overpressure on collecting eggs joint to the destruction of the swamps led the birds to extinction.

Mind that the closest living relatives of the elephant birds are the kiwis, which are also solitary and elusive birds.

Though there are some advocates for Austronesians first making landfall up to six hundred years earlier, there is only very sketchy evidence for arrival of Austronesians prior to the fourth century CE. I am basically splitting the difference by having them arrive more or less simultaneously with the Judeans. And again, since this is on the optimistic side of reasonableness, I am looking at fairly peaceful relations between the two groups up through my latest TL post. Perhaps not the most likely turn of events, but certainly not ASB.

Austronesians arrived in Madagascar in several waves. There is some vague idea that the most important waves occured when you are actually telling in your TL, and these waves imported rice and introduced more advanced skills in agriculture and commerce.
However, the most documented waves of settlement found in the island a previous 'native' people, the Vazimba. There is a lot of speculation (and little real evidence) about their real origins and when they did actually settle in Madagascar, because when the Europeans arrived, the Vazimba formed mostly a cultural branch than a different ethnic people, due to long intermix with 'modern' ethnic groups.
Provided that the original Vazimba were quite primitive in their customs, they could have arrived several centuries before the main waves, but as long as they left little archeological evidence, it is difficult to say when they arrived in Madagascar.

 

[fi11222]

fi11222, the Judeans had an excellent reason to flee and flee far away. They were worried that the Romans would kill them. Their initial destination (Yemen) proved to not be a good option. Ending up in Madagascar was a (happy) accident. So no initial prophet necessary.

I am not so sure. Many Jews stayed in Judea and in Jerusalem even though they knew the Romans were about to kill them. Some even killed themselves with their own families at Masada rather than surrender to the Romans. And that was long after there was no "rational" hope for victory. The reason is that they thought God would intervene on their side or resurrect them. Religious motivation outweighed any other kind of motivation (survival, economic success, the need to procreate, ...)

Having a far away island, or many faraway lands all being the "Promised Land" would be an alien thought to almost any Jew, then or now.

Sure. But so is the idea of the Messiah dying on a cross. Yet, a number of Jews were convinced by that idea. Indeed, it seems that after the failure of Bar Kokhba, it seems many Jews were ready to consider radical changes in their Faith. After all, Bar Kokhba fulfilled all the criteria of the traditional messiah narrative. And yet God did not helped him. On the contrary, as a result of his adventure, Israel was massacred as never before. So why not consider a dying Messiah ? or a new Promised Land for that matter. After 70 and 135, anything was possible in Judaism.

Moreover, the beginnings of the Diaspora predate this time period by centuries.

Indeed but it is a different thing to be a trader or a craftsman in say Corinth, Massilia or Alexandria and to be a settler in a very far away land no one has heard of before. Think about the Pilgrims in Massachussets. The reason there were successful settler communities in 17th century North America is religious. Those seeking economic gain went further south like the Spanish did or further North where the fur business was. Being a farming settler was just too tough and uncertain to be attractive unless your motivation was religious, which it was for the puritans.

Being a Jewish settler in IInd century Madacascar is even scarier, way scarier actually, than being a farmer in 17th century Cape Cod. Many maps at the time did not depict Africa as going that far south. For a Jew, Jerusalem was the center of the world. By contrast, exiting the red sea and going thousands of miles due South meant you were going to fall off the edge of the world.

And yet, with religion, anything is possible. That is the beauty of it. I believe that the idea of having Jews populate Madagascar is really interesting and thought provoking. But to be in any way realistic, religion must play a central role in the endeavor. By definition, the Jews were an intensely religious people. The Romans liked to call themselves "the most religious of peoples". Yet they were stunned to see how intense the Jews were. They could not fathom how they could chose to die in such numbers just for the sake of their God. In a context like that, settling Madagascar cannot be just a matter of "we are looking for a safe place away from the Romans". The initial landing on Madagascar might be an accident but if we want them to stay there and put in their best effort at clearing the land for agriculture and having children and raising them there etc, a massive religious motivation is an absolute necessity. Otherwise, the settlement will last no more than a few years. Those people who can will go back as soon as they can. And the others will just die of boredom and depression.

I think the Judeans wouldn't be averse to calling Madagascar the "Blessed Isle" or something like that. I think I may have just found a name for the nation. Anyone know how to say that in Hebrew?

"Blessed Isles" would be something like "Barak'iyim" but again, that would not be enough. In some way, it has to be "Erets Yisrael", the Land given by God to the descendants of Jacob (aka Israel).

Here is an idea for a prophetic vision:

In the second year of the fallen star [Bar Kokhba means "son of the star"], in the fourth month, on the fifth day of the month, as I was among the poor ones by the pool of Siloam, the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God.
As I looked, behold, a stormy wind came out of the north, and a great cloud, with brightness around it, and fire flashing forth continually, and in the midst of the fire, as it were gleaming metal.
And I saw the likeness of a man, his body gleaming as gold, wielding a flaming sword.
And he was doing battle to Leviathan, the great serpent from the seas, with its seven heads and body covered in bronze scales.
And the man cut the heads of the Leviathan one by one and each let out a mighty roar as it fell into the sea amid jets of hissing steam.
As the man was about to cut the last head of the beast, it swerved around and avoided the blow of the flaming sword.
The last head of Leviathan buried itself in the coastline, biting the earth with its teeth sharp as steel.
Then the man caught the neck of the leviathan with one mighty hand and pulled its remaining head from the ground.
His sword in a great orb of fire slashed through the neck of the beast and sent its last head flying through the air in a great cloud of smoke.
And I saw it fly very far, almost to the edge of the earth that the Ancient of days had created.
And it fell into the sea with a mighty splash.
And behold, it fell in waters shallow enough for part of it not to be submerged.
And the man with the flaming sword turned toward me and I was blinded by the glow of his golden limbs.
He said to me : "Behold", and I looked at the fallen head. And it turned into land; fertile land well watered and lush with greenery.
And a scroll fell from the sky onto the new land and on it it was written : "Erets Yisrael".
And the man said : "Son of man, the beast has eaten with its teeth part of your inheritance, the Land that was given to you as a covenant between the Lord and your father Abraham"
"As a result, the Lord has turned its head into an even bigger Land far away from the bloody grasping hand of the Kittim."
"And it will be yours and your offspring's in perpetuity. I am the Lord and I will protect you with an outstretched arm"
"On the waves you will sail under my wing and the Land you will possess".
And the vision was ended, and I fell on my face besides the pool of Siloam towards the house of the Lord.

 

[Byzantion]

I have seen a thread discussing the start of a tmeline with a concept of Jews fleeing from the Roman Empire starting over in Australia. I commented that the distance, over 10,000 kilometers, was way too far.

I think that Madagascar, while still an immense distance at over 5,000 kilometers, might just be doable starting from Eilat, especially with a stop off in Yemen. I don't know if I have the expertise to start a timeline on this, or the time, but I'd love to see someone do it, or at least see comments as to plausibility and outcome/consequences.

For the sake of argument, early in the Bar Kochba revolt, a respected member of the Jewish community in Jerusalem sees the writing on the wall/has a vision, and convinces a fair number of Judeans that they must flee far, far away from the Romans and start over, or they will all be killed along with Bar Kochba and his zealots. They go south to Eilat, and buy or hire every ship they can find over a period of a few months, outfit them, and head south.

Their thought is to resettle in the Himyarite Kingdom, which has a substantial Jewish community, but when they arrive, a severe drought is in progress, and they are fearful their ample stores will be taken by the local government, or by thieves. They argue over where to proceed next, and in the end exit quickly in two groups. Fourteen ships head east, and are never heard from again. Twenty ships head south, along the east coast of Africa, stopping at various trading communities.

At Rhapta, the southernmost trading community anyone is aware of, they hear of lands further south that might be suitable for settlement. The (by this time) sixteen remaining ships set out, and are driven east by the edge of a cyclone, losing three more ships in the process, and hit the western coast of Madagascar. Seven ships run aground in a fairly compact stretch of coast. The survivors are found rapidly by the remainining ships. There are not enough seaworthy ships left to carry the refugees to their previous destination, so they decide to settle in the area where the storm took them, viewing it as a sign from God.

Let's say you now have several hundred Jewish refugees, with a good mix of skills, fair supplies and equipment, and six ships, on a [nearly] uninhabited island. You can assume there are either no Austronesian settlers there yet, or if there are, there is only a small village or two on the other side of the island.

What happens now?

They might have encounterd the Aepyornis Maximus (the Elephant Bird) and Gorilla sized Lemurs. There still had been an Prehistoric Megafauna at this time. It didn´t survive the encounter with humans OTL.

 

[Martinus Paduei]

fi11222, many Jews did do such things, but I am not talking about what they did. This is a comparatively small poulation. While certainly quite religious, as a group, these particular Judeans were somewhat more... realistic about their chances against Rome, and about whether God would directly intervene on their behalf. They chose to flee rather than face their fate. And they were not going off the edge of the world. They went from Eilat to Yemen, well known to many worldly people of the time, and then hopped south from trading port to trading port. Only the very last portion of the journey was into a completely unknown area.

The people who fled the wrath of Rome at great cost and risk will not lightly turn around and go back in the hope that Rome would suddenly treat them well. I don't think that people will die of boredom and depression. They would be too busy building new lives for themselves. And after a few years, this will be their home, and more importantly, their childrens' home.

Finally, that is a pretty cool prophetic vision. It is not, however, my vision for this timeline.


Byzantion, read on. I (and others) discuss Elephant Birds later in the thread.

 

[Martinus Paduei]

This isn't dead--just thinking about what direction I want this to go in, and I think I have an idea...