An Israel-esque Romani Nation?

MadMc

MadMc

Recently I have become interested in the Romani (Gypsy) ethnic group, and their history. I was wondering what AH thought of the possibility of an Israel-esque nation, formed by the superpowers after the Holocaust. The Romani have much of the same historical persecutions we see in the history of the jews in Europe, including extermination by the Nazis.

Main things I see that would need to happen before this would be possible would be a Zionist type movement in the Romani culture and a some form of propaganda being used during the war to gain sympathies for the Romani.

Any thoughts?
 

deamy

Where would such a state be located?

I believe the Romani's descended from India originally?

And the biggest populations today are in the US and in Brazil?
 
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MadMc

MadMc

Paul V McNutt said:
How do you get Eastern European nations to surrender territory?
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I never said in Eastern Europe.

Even in OTL they really did not get Palestinians to give up land without a fight.

If you really wanted to do something like Israel (a "ancient homeland") It would be somewhere in India.

Either way, I would imagine you would have the Allies of WW2 overseeing it, much like what was done in Israel.
 
MadMc

MadMc

deamy said:
Where would such a state be located?

I believe the Romani's decend from India organizationally?

And the biggest populations today are in the US and Brazil?
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There still are large populations in the Balkans. Predominately Romania and Turkey. One possibility could be territory taken from Romania following their alliance to Nazi Germany in WW2.
 

jacobus

According to Wiki, there are between 2 and 12 million Gypsies in the world. That's theoretically enough people to form a nation, if they could have somehow been gathered together from every country in which they live. But where would one find the Romany settlers with the skills necessary for such an ambitious project? You'd need many trained engineers, farmers, teachers, physicians, administrators, to make it work.
Any Romany state would have to have been established somewhere outside of Europe. There's too much bad blood there. Maybe a North or South American country or countries could have provided some land for the creation of this state. Or, maybe one of the less populous colonies could have been turned over to them. Of course, the cost of transporting Europe's Romany population overseas to their new homeland would have been considerable.
Also, the existing population of whatever colony the Romany claimed as their own would probably fight fiercely to expel the newcomers. Would the Romany have been as successful in resisting the indigenes' intifada as the Zionist Jews have been?
 
MadMc

MadMc

From what i'm reading about Israel, at the time of it's founding in 1948, there was only about 600,000 Jews, about 30% of the population, and concentrated in a few districts in any sort of real minority. Only in Jaffa was the population a majority Jewish. Following the Holocaust, where 500,000 Romani were killed, there was a large exodus from Europe to other countries, predominately the US. If there had been a previous homeland movement, much like the zionist movement in the late 19th and early 20th centuries that concentrated Romani settlers, I could see it happening.
 
MadMc

MadMc

Enigmajones said:
Not really gonna work, they don't want to settle, it defeats the whole purpose of their culture.
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In more recent times, Romani have begun to settle and purchase lands. It really has died out, and died out quickly as there is less green space for carriage trains and population has risen

"In Eastern Europe, Roma often live in depressed squatter communities with very high unemployment, while only some are fully integrated in the society. However, in some cases—notably the Kalderash clan in Romania, who work as traditional coppersmiths—they have prospered. Although some Roma still embrace a nomadic lifestyle, most migration is actually forced, as most communities do not accept Romani settlements."
 

Enigmajones

MadMc said:
In more recent times, Romani have begun to settle and purchase lands. It really has died out, and died out quickly as there is less green space for carriage trains and population has risen

"In Eastern Europe, Roma often live in depressed squatter communities with very high unemployment, while only some are fully integrated in the society. However, in some cases—notably the Kalderash clan in Romania, who work as traditional coppersmiths—they have prospered. Although some Roma still embrace a nomadic lifestyle, most migration is actually forced, as most communities do not accept Romani settlements."
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Well yes, but a lot of that just comes from the forced settlement of large segments of their population. Either way, the Romani don't have a real homeland, unless they have it recorded somewhere, and would need a large backing to that homeland. Given that their most likely homeland is in India or Southeast Asia, I doubt it will end up happening.
 
MadMc

MadMc

Enigmajones said:
Well yes, but a lot of that just comes from the forced settlement of large segments of their population. Either way, the Romani don't have a real homeland, unless they have it recorded somewhere, and would need a large backing to that homeland. Given that their most likely homeland is in India or Southeast Asia, I doubt it will end up happening.
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Boy you live up to your title :p

By the 1880s there was already knowledge of the Romani connection to india from linguistic studies. A 'Zionist' movement within the population and with British backing and the sale of some lands in northern india/pakistan, much like what happened in Palestine after WW1, you could see the beginning of some family groups returning. After WW2, you would see a mass exodus from Europe and the Nazis and Russians and the push for a nation state.
 

Incognito

Banned
MadMc said:
Boy you live up to your title :p

By the 1880s there was already knowledge of the Romani connection to india from linguistic studies. A 'Zionist' movement within the population and with British backing and the sale of some lands in northern india/pakistan, much like what happened in Palestine after WW1, you could see the beginning of some family groups returning. After WW2, you would see a mass exodus from Europe and the Nazis and Russians and the push for a nation state.
Click to expand...
But why would Romani want to go back to India? My understanding was that Zionism was inspired by the desire to re-create Jewish homeland as foretold in Holy Scriptures. Romani don't have a similar "manifest destiny" that I know of that would inspire them to go to India vs anyplace else.
 
MadMc

MadMc

Incognito said:
But why would Romani want to go back to India? My understanding was that Zionism was inspired by the desire to re-create Jewish homeland as foretold in Holy Scriptures. Romani don't have a similar "manifest destiny" that I know of that would inspire them to go to India vs anyplace else.
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When I say 'Zionist' movement, I'm describing a movement built around their minority status and the drive to form a nation with a majority status. While OTL Zionists chose Israel because of religious ideals, this has nothing to do with the very idea of taking a spread out minority and forming a nation.

I had earlier talked about forming a nation in eastern europe, which is the idea I am leaning towards. The india idea is just a possibility
 

jacobus

Oh no, eastern Europe would be the worst possible place for the new state! If they can't create a homeland anywhere in south Asia, better they should be encouraged to relocate to Africa, or somewhere in the Americas.
 

The Uchronian

deamy said:
Where would such a state be located?

I believe the Romani's descended from India originally?

And the biggest populations today are in the US and in Brazil?
Click to expand...

Many of them are, yeah.

I believe you could try to make something work....why not Transylvania? :D
 

BuSOF

One simple question - how do you see such a country to function? Because while the Jews in general live dispersed throughout the world, but whereever they settle themselves they quickly become part of the upper middle class. The gipsies are always at the bottom of society, no matter where they live. I don't have the slightest intention to sound racist, but I know this from experience, as I am from a Eastern European country with a significant gipsy population.

Just as an example about their attitude: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0WIBFH4yfQ
And there is more: http://vbox7.com/play:d04bf1d354

Bottom line is that a fast passenger train has been stopped for about 30 minutes because of this. How do you see something like this happening in Germany or France or UK etc.?
 
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Falecius

Uhm... if you feel evil, you can pick Kashmir, and have a Romani state declared right during the first India-Pakistan War.
 
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