An independent Burgundy? The second son of Charles V

[Mirza Khan]

Over ten years ago, I wrote a rather long TL (that I definately consider a relic of my youth now) with the premise that Charles V had a second son, who became ruler of the OTL Spanish Netherlands + Franche-Comte. But that said, I think it does make an interesting WI. So, to start the discussion, lets say that sometime in the late 1530's, Charles V and Isabelle of Portugal have a second son. By this point, Charles's younger brother Ferdinand is already Archduke of Austria and King of the Romans (designated heir to the HRE), so Charles' Burgundian territories seem like the most logical inheritance to give him. But this raises other questions:

-The highest ranked titles in the Netherlands at this point are Duchies (Brabant, Gelre, Luxembourg, Limburg). This poses the twin issues that a) Charles' Burgundian son will be a mere Duke, and b) none of the Duchy titles have prominance over one another, leaving the Netherlands vulnerable to division in a way that Spain is not. Although, the Duchy of Brabant claimed to be successors to the Duchy of Lower Lotheringia, with had ruled most of the Netherlands-maybe this claim is recognized in some way, like making Brabant an Archduchy along with Austria? Or maybe the "Kingdom of Frisia" gets summoned from the depths of mythology to solve the problem?

-How would Charles' Burgundian son handle the Catholic/Protestant issues that led to the OTL Dutch Revolt? Unlike Phillip II, he's going to be right there-perhaps he negotiates a series of religious compromises that allow the United Netherlands to muddle through until the counter-reformation kicks into gear and the Jesuits become available? Or maybe he falls under the influence of William the Silent and outright converts to Protestantism? (It occurs to me that a united, state-run Lutheran church might help bring together what will start out as a disjointed patchwork of separate realms)

-What might the future prospects of this realm be, if it survives. It will already start with Wallonia-if at some point it also conquers the Ruhr it might turn into one of the great industrial powerhouses of Europe

 

[Dragonboy]

An attemped rework! Sounds great! And i hope the son is named John, that would bledn in much better there.

Elevation to arch-duchy would be good.

And hopefully it remains catholic with the ruler beign there and more tolerant

 

[DrakeRlugia]

I have to admit I do like the idea of an Archduchy of Brabant, or even Burgundy (as they still claimed the Duchy of Burgundy) for them as a title.

Much IOTL, Charles V will likely use some sort of Pragmatic Sanction to unify the succession of the various territories in the Low Countries, much as he did IOTL. The Habsburgs had inherited much of the centralizing tendencies of the Valois in Burgundy, so simplifying the succession in one person will make things a bit more simpler.

Kingdoms... there is Frisia, but I feel like it doesn't say very much about the whole territory. Charles and his successors continued to claim Burgundy despite losing the titular Duchy, so there could always be a Kingdom of Burgundy... the Emperors did at one point have a third kingdom outside Germany and Italy, that or Burgundy / Arles. It was based around Provence, but could perhaps be appropriated for the Low Countries, as. That's what I did in my TL. It certainly worked a bit better than trying to recreate Lotharingia, which would imply dominion over other territories, and some say that Chares the Bold had plans and designs to revive the Kingdom of Burgundy: why not have his grandson finish the job?

 

[Atrahasis]

For Spain, she will be spared from 80 years of fighting in the Netherlands, a lot of wars with France and the ruin of its economy, so more focus in the Mediterranean and Portugal, I guess. I'm not sure if Philip would marry Mary of England in this situation, but this alternated child of Charles would also be too young to marry Mary.

I wonder if the Habsburgs of Burgundy would contest the title of Emperor with the Habsburgs of Austria, that's something France could capitalize on.

 

[Dragonboy]

For Spain, she will be spared from 80 years of fighting in the Netherlands, a lot of wars with France and the ruin of its economy, so more focus in the Mediterranean and Portugal, I guess. I'm not sure if Philip would marry Mary of England in this situation, but this alternated child of Charles would also be too young to marry Mary.

I wonder if the Habsburgs of Burgundy would contest the title of Emperor with the Habsburgs of Austria, that's something France could capitalize on.

Unless the male line dies hopefully they will not, they would benatural allies

 

[Mirza Khan]

Kingdoms... there is Frisia, but I feel like it doesn't say very much about the whole territory. Charles and his successors continued to claim Burgundy despite losing the titular Duchy, so there could always be a Kingdom of Burgundy... the Emperors did at one point have a third kingdom outside Germany and Italy, that or Burgundy / Arles. It was based around Provence, but could perhaps be appropriated for the Low Countries, as. That's what I did in my TL. It certainly worked a bit better than trying to recreate Lotharingia, which would imply dominion over other territories, and some say that Chares the Bold had plans and designs to revive the Kingdom of Burgundy: why not have his grandson finish the job?

Well, "Prussia" didn't say much about the whole territory of the Elector of Brandenburg, and that didn't stop him. Being able to claim a "royal" title, no matter how tenious, was a really big deal in this era.

That said, I could see them calling themselves the "Kingdom of Burgundy" as well, and "Burgundy" gradually being defined to mean the Low Countries. Maybe France's Burgundy becomes "Old Burgundy"?

 

[Mirza Khan]

Another thing that occurs to me: TTL's "Hapsburg Netherlands" will likely have significant conflicts of interest with the other two Hapsburg branches. Both it and the Austrians will likely want to be Holy Roman Emperor, and both the Hapsburg Netherlands and Spain will want to have large trading empires, and especially those sweet, sweet Caribbean sugar islands. The "Hapsburg Alliance" seems likely to be much harder to maintain ITTL.

 

[Dragonboy]

Another thing that occurs to me: TTL's "Hapsburg Netherlands" will likely have significant conflicts of interest with the other two Hapsburg branches. Both it and the Austrians will likely want to be Holy Roman Emperor, and both the Hapsburg Netherlands and Spain will want to have large trading empires, and especially those sweet, sweet Caribbean sugar islands. The "Hapsburg Alliance" seems likely to be much harder to maintain ITTL.

I honestly see the burgundan branch as the backup in case the austrian line ever went extinct

 

[isabella]

Another thing that occurs to me: TTL's "Hapsburg Netherlands" will likely have significant conflicts of interest with the other two Hapsburg branches. Both it and the Austrians will likely want to be Holy Roman Emperor, and both the Hapsburg Netherlands and Spain will want to have large trading empires, and especially those sweet, sweet Caribbean sugar islands. The "Hapsburg Alliance" seems likely to be much harder to maintain ITTL.

Unlikely. Specially because a deal on colonies between Spain and Burgundy will be likely reached pretty early and I doubt who the Burgundian will be too interested in the Empire or getting the title (who would be complicated by the fact who the Austrian branch has an Electorate), plus Burgundy need the support of its Spanish and Austrian cousins against France who is their main enemy.

 

[DrakeRlugia]

As Isabella said, can't say there will be much interest in gaining the imperial title. We don't know exactly how imperial elections functioned, but at least in the eighteenth century, one family possessing two electorates (Wittelsbachs) meant they were only able to exercise one of those votes, not two. So there's not much chance for Burgundy to attain any position within the empire as an electorate or in opposition to the Austrian line. Likely they'd be seen as an ally or buffer of both of the lines, not only the terminus in the Spanish road, but a wealthy territory to provide aid to their imperial cousins.

 

[DrakeRlugia]

Also... this Habsburg Burgundian territory will still see Spain and Austria to a lesser extent as their natural allies, given France's expansionism in the 17th century.

 

[gradje]

-The highest ranked titles in the Netherlands at this point are Duchies (Brabant, Gelre, Luxembourg, Limburg). This poses the twin issues that a) Charles' Burgundian son will be a mere Duke, and b) none of the Duchy titles have prominance over one another, leaving the Netherlands vulnerable to division in a way that Spain is not. Although, the Duchy of Brabant claimed to be successors to the Duchy of Lower Lotheringia, with had ruled most of the Netherlands-maybe this claim is recognized in some way, like making Brabant an Archduchy along with Austria? Or maybe the "Kingdom of Frisia" gets summoned from the depths of mythology to solve the problem?

It was pointed out above, but Charles V issued a pragmatic sanction in 1549 which unified the various Burgundian holdings. Whilst a singular title did not unify them, the Netherlands were a singular if decentralized political entity. The closest this came to breaking was in 1672 when Overijssel elected Bernhard von Galen as lord during the Disaster Year. A royal title would be of much interests to the monarch, but that's down the line. Which would also have to consider the constitutional structure of the Holy Roman Empire and how Vienna is keeping up.

-How would Charles' Burgundian son handle the Catholic/Protestant issues that led to the OTL Dutch Revolt? Unlike Phillip II, he's going to be right there-perhaps he negotiates a series of religious compromises that allow the United Netherlands to muddle through until the counter-reformation kicks into gear and the Jesuits become available? Or maybe he falls under the influence of William the Silent and outright converts to Protestantism? (It occurs to me that a united, state-run Lutheran church might help bring together what will start out as a disjointed patchwork of separate realms)

Depends on the upbringing, but it's not unlikely that a Habsburg seated in Mechelen or Brussel is going to be more carefull when navigating the issue's the Netherlands faced going into the 80 Years War. He'll probably be more lenient about economic issue's and take better care of the increased food prices, easing religous tension. Lutheranism won't really make its entrance into the Netherlands, protestantism is still going to be Calvinist, but a more general policy of toleration will probably be in place untill the Counterreformation really kicks off. St. Petrus Canisius, Doctor of the Church, was Dutch and one of the first Jesuits after all. The most interesting change however may be in regards to England. Phillip II's attempts to conquer it with the Spanish Armada may end up becoming a Dutch Habsburg attempt. Which would be very much harder to stop due to geographical factors.

-What might the future prospects of this realm be, if it survives. It will already start with Wallonia-if at some point it also conquers the Ruhr it might turn into one of the great industrial powerhouses of Europe

This considers Habsburg geopolitics a bit more, especially in regards to Charles V's division of his empire. Initially, it always made more sense to me if the Netherlands went with Austria, they were dynastically united longer after all and its a part of the Holy Roman Empire. But, consider the purpouses of each part of the empire. Austria was to controll the HRE and be the buffer against Ottoman expasion. Spain was to contain France on all sides and be the naval power of the empire. The Netherlands is a natural fit in that second half. A Habsburg Netherlands is going to fit into both of those roles. It will be a naval power against England and the Baltic, her trading interests make it so. Space in the south will always be a looked after commodity and at the same time the Estates are not interested in maintaining the Free County as a part of the union. If they succeed against France, Picardy will be straight up conquered or traded for the Free County. Controll over Calais is another important naval asset against England. Longer term, the Rhineland and Lower Saxony are going to be targets for expansion. They're going to be more naturally drawn to Mechelen/Brussels as we now have a unified Dutch language area exerting a lot of influence over a relatively far away corner of the HRE.

 

[Opunium]

Very interesting premise, I recently read the biographies of William the Silent, Charles V en Philip II. My first thoughts:

Regarding the title: It could be possible to elevate the Duchy of Brabant into the Kingdom of Brabant. It being the richest region of the Netherlands. Geoffrey Parker mentions that Charles V talked about a new kingdom of Neustria, but resurrecting that title seems very far fetched. Kingdom of Frisia, or even Lotharingia (but without actual Lotharingia) seems more likely to me (but Brabant being the most plausible).

The reformation is going to be really interesting. The absence of a strictly catholic ruler and the influence of the nobles on Margaretha of Parma (who was clearly split) led to the toxic cocktail that eventually led to the 80 years war. Even if this son is perosnality wise is exactly like Philip II his mere presence in the Netherlands wont lead to the 80's year war. But this son will be raised in the Netherlands, and thus he will be much more pragmatic beging customed with the Dutch, decentralised way of ruling. Because Philip II and William of Orange never bonded William eventually turned against him. ITTL William the Silent would never throw in his lot with the Saxons/Calvinists, being much closer to this hypothetical son (I'd say his name would be John/Jan).
Remember that Calvinists were never a majority before the end of the 80 years war in the OTL Dutch Republic (only 1/5 of the population of Haarlem in 1620 was a registered member of the Reformed church).

 

[Archduke]

3 separate Habsburg rulers, each strong in their own right and able to focus on ruling their own territories is a nightmare for France. Based on my understanding of Spanish military strategy, I believe that Spain and the Netherlands remain strong military allies to balance out against France's natural inclination to break the Habsburg chokehold. When France threatens the Netherlands, Spain threatens France, and when France threatens Spain, the Netherlands threatens France. This forces a division of French resources and gives both sides breathing room. And then the Emperor will probably appreciate the Burgundian buffer so he's inclined to keep Burgundy afloat. Later on, Spain and the Netherlands might have increasing commercial competition but I think that the Dutch will be more focused on their competition with England and France and that the Netherlands will want to maintain good relations with Spain to have a monopoly on the Spanish trade.

 

[Janprimus]

3 separate Habsburg rulers, each strong in their own right and able to focus on ruling their own territories is a nightmare for France. Based on my understanding of Spanish military strategy, I believe that Spain and the Netherlands remain strong military allies to balance out against France's natural inclination to break the Habsburg chokehold. When France threatens the Netherlands, Spain threatens France, and when France threatens Spain, the Netherlands threatens France. This forces a division of French resources and gives both sides breathing room. And then the Emperor will probably appreciate the Burgundian buffer so he's inclined to keep Burgundy afloat. Later on, Spain and the Netherlands might have increasing commercial competition but I think that the Dutch will be more focused on their competition with England and France and that the Netherlands will want to maintain good relations with Spain to have a monopoly on the Spanish trade.

Like IOTL the Low Countries might be very willing helpful in the fight of Spain against Portugal, provided they can keep the Portuguese colonies they catch. Given the trade oriented Low Countries, that's a match made in heaven, Burgundy wasn't part of the treaty of Tordesillas.

 

[Nova_Philomena]

Over ten years ago, I wrote a rather long TL (that I definately consider a relic of my youth now) with the premise that Charles V had a second son, who became ruler of the OTL Spanish Netherlands + Franche-Comte. But that said, I think it does make an interesting WI. So, to start the discussion, lets say that sometime in the late 1530's, Charles V and Isabelle of Portugal have a second son. By this point, Charles's younger brother Ferdinand is already Archduke of Austria and King of the Romans (designated heir to the HRE), so Charles' Burgundian territories seem like the most logical inheritance to give him. But this raises other questions:

-The highest ranked titles in the Netherlands at this point are Duchies (Brabant, Gelre, Luxembourg, Limburg). This poses the twin issues that a) Charles' Burgundian son will be a mere Duke, and b) none of the Duchy titles have prominance over one another, leaving the Netherlands vulnerable to division in a way that Spain is not. Although, the Duchy of Brabant claimed to be successors to the Duchy of Lower Lotheringia, with had ruled most of the Netherlands-maybe this claim is recognized in some way, like making Brabant an Archduchy along with Austria? Or maybe the "Kingdom of Frisia" gets summoned from the depths of mythology to solve the problem?

-How would Charles' Burgundian son handle the Catholic/Protestant issues that led to the OTL Dutch Revolt? Unlike Phillip II, he's going to be right there-perhaps he negotiates a series of religious compromises that allow the United Netherlands to muddle through until the counter-reformation kicks into gear and the Jesuits become available? Or maybe he falls under the influence of William the Silent and outright converts to Protestantism? (It occurs to me that a united, state-run Lutheran church might help bring together what will start out as a disjointed patchwork of separate realms)

-What might the future prospects of this realm be, if it survives. It will already start with Wallonia-if at some point it also conquers the Ruhr it might turn into one of the great industrial powerhouses of Europe

The son would be forced to become more moderate, although Philip II would definitely supply his brother with troops and ammunition, he could not rely on that due to the very diverse Protestant sect growing in the Netherlands (Especially William of Orange who is incredibly popular and charismatic), and the Burgundian Son would have a reverse Karl V effect. Karl V was initially disliked in Spain for being a quasi-foreign Prince raised in the Netherlands, which resulted in him agreeing that all of his children would be raised in Spain under Isabella of Portugal, I think we can safely assume not much would change for the Burgundian Son, who would become a quasi-foreigner in his own right in the Burgundian Netherlands.

The son would probably continue Roman Catholic policies, but it would be smarter for him to meditate on Catholic-Protestant tensions, other than persecute Protestants (like his brother would). The best case scenario would be a better leader in the Burgundian Netherlands to ease tensions, in the worst case scenario, the Dutch Revolt happens and our ITL son will have all the assassination attempts on him by Protestants that William the Silent had on him by Catholics.

His marriage would probably be either to one of his cousins or maybe to Elizabeth Tudor is Mary really presses them, though I wouldn't rule out a local bride, though more likely as a second option/wife.

 

[Archduke]

Like IOTL the Low Countries might be very willing helpful in the fight of Spain against Portugal, provided they can keep the Portuguese colonies they catch. Given the trade oriented Low Countries, that's a match made in heaven, Burgundy wasn't part of the treaty of Tordesillas.

That's a very good point. The Dutch might use the Portuguese war exactly like OTL, to advance their own empire.

 

[HyperMuscularDemon]

How about England? There might actually be a marriage between this ATL heir of Burgundy and Mary I of England, which could have some interesting implications.

 

[isabella]

The son would be forced to become more moderate, although Philip II would definitely supply his brother with troops and ammunition, he could not rely on that due to the very diverse Protestant sect growing in the Netherlands (Especially William of Orange who is incredibly popular and charismatic), and the Burgundian Son would have a reverse Karl V effect. Karl V was initially disliked in Spain for being a quasi-foreign Prince raised in the Netherlands, which resulted in him agreeing that all of his children would be raised in Spain under Isabella of Portugal, I think we can safely assume not much would change for the Burgundian Son, who would become a quasi-foreigner in his own right in the Burgundian Netherlands.

The son would probably continue Roman Catholic policies, but it would be smarter for him to meditate on Catholic-Protestant tensions, other than persecute Protestants (like his brother would). The best case scenario would be a better leader in the Burgundian Netherlands to ease tensions, in the worst case scenario, the Dutch Revolt happens and our ITL son will have all the assassination attempts on him by Protestants that William the Silent had on him by Catholics.

His marriage would probably be either to one of his cousins or maybe to Elizabeth Tudor is Mary really presses them, though I wouldn't rule out a local bride, though more likely as a second option/wife.

The heir of Burgundy would be sent there as soon he is five/six years old and between a present ruler and an absent one who cared little for that lands there is an abyss. Protestantism in the Netherlands would be reduced (it expanded greatly as consequence of the revolt against Philip’s rule and governors) and I doubt who William of Orange would be involved at all against Ferdinand/John.

 

[isabella]

How about England? There might actually be a marriage between this ATL heir of Burgundy and Mary I of England, which could have some interesting implications.

No way. Mary was already too old for Philip and she wanted a King in his own right as husband meaning who Charles V will need to merry her himself. Plus in unlikely who Ferdinand/John would be available when Mary became Queen.