An Age of Miracles: The Revival of Rhomanion
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Donald Reaver
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One problem for a peace in Egypt will be if Hassan can make a deal without being assassinated by one of his followers who thinks he betrayed them.
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I've gotten pretty smart impression of Hassan, so I doubt he'll abuse the goodwill of the Romans. If they offer him a slice of Northern Egypt, I don't think he'll get greedy. They'll probably want a port though. Maybe he'll get a slice, maybe the peace terms turn his "kingdom" in to Italy-type cluster of city states. Maybe Memphis will act as a medieval Checkpoint Charlie between the Despotate and the Kingdomlet. If so, we'll associate the word Memphis with something very different ITL...
Been reading this timeline for a fair while, absolutely love it. Just wondering if the Romans might offer to move the muslim population or at least a good chunk of it? Either to Libya or Arabia? They've already reduced Cairo's population to refugees afterall, and the Roman Empire has a long tradition of population transfers. Plus it would remove any risk to the link between Rome and Ethiopea.
Darthfanta: The Empire is offering peace but the details are to be decided based on the situation on the ground when and if it is negotiated.
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HanEmpire: One disadvantage of having a big empire is that it is rare to have only one opponent at a time. The Ottomans are no different than the Romans in that regard.
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It’s not going to be that easy to make peace with the Romans. The White Palace is very interested that Georgia maintain her current borders. A strong Georgia, particularly with her territories south of the River Aras make for a perfect buffer protecting Roman Armenia from the east, which is incidentally the direction the Seljuk Turks took when they conquered Anatolia. The Romans are quite aware of that fact.
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Right now the front in Egypt is just south of Cairo.
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Arrix85: As much as I would like to find a way for the Romans to tolerate Sunni Muslims, I can’t think of a way that would be plausible. And OOC, it would turn this into even more of a Roman wank.
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The Maronites are concentrated in Lebanon and have some strictures, but more in the Theodoros IV “I want an excuse for some extra taxes” vein than “religious scum, go die”. The Romans and Maronites have a mutual indifference toward each other.
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The Ajloun tribes are tribal clients (think Ghassanids) who lived interspersed with people under direct Roman control. They are an autonomous people living largely on Roman land.
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AussieHawker: The Romans wouldn’t mind a Muslim Egyptian Despotate, but right now all they’ve said is “we’re willing to make peace” and Hassan has yet to respond.
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Norlag: Stefanos Monomakos is a top-notch siege commander and design, probably the closest to a Roman Vauban. He has some issues as a field commander though. As for Ethiopia, they take up a good chunk of the next update.
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5000 Cows: I thought of another Mad Mahdi joke so you might get your wish.
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Donald Reaver: That is an important issue. Hassan is not an absolute monarch. He got to his position by charisma and force of personality. And after the loss of Cairo and his Fabian tactics he is not so popular in certain circles.
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Niklaus: The Romans don’t want Hassan in northern Egypt. South of Cairo they do not care about since it secures the Pharaoh’s Canal and the Nile Delta whose grain harvests are so useful for feeding the cities of the Aegean basin.
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Billy Boy Mark II: Thank you. The Romans have considered population transfers. That is how they Hellenized the Syrian coast. However there are a lot of Muslims and there is the question of where to put them. Sticking them in Greece/Anatolia is too much of a security risk as they’re viewed as untrustworthy. Sticking them in Libya they could cause trouble by hooking up with the corsairs/Marinids. Bulgaria might be the best choice. It is not as if they are going to have much in connection with the Hungarians. Expelling from the Empire entirely has the option of simplicity but no one wants to hand Iskandar a couple of million more taxpayers and recruits.
Hmmm could the Romans offer Hassan Mecca? They don't need to ship every Muslim over the red sea, just him, his army/followers and a good chunk... Giving him the holy city might sell it to his followers, as yes their losing their homeland, but gaining the most holy city in Islam.
The ones that are left could be broken up amongst a dozen locations, Bulgaria, even Syria whos muslim population will be hammered during this most recent rebellion, perhaps even the Crimea...?
The ones that are left could be broken up amongst a dozen locations, Bulgaria, even Syria whos muslim population will be hammered during this most recent rebellion, perhaps even the Crimea...?
It's full of Goths, Greeks and oppressed Muslim Tatars, though I wouldn't be surprised if many have converted to Orthodoxy by now.
So yes, it would be considered loyal. I doubt that an infusion of Muslims would do much to destabilize the region, given that the cold climate will weaken the people used to the climate in Syria.
EDIT: Also I think population transfer to Bulgaria and Crimea is indeed the best answer. Bulgaria's bordered by the Vlachs, who have no reason at all to war against Rhomania or give support to a bunch of Muslim peasants. The presence of the Serbs will put a distance between the potential Muslim fifth-column and possible Hungarian invaders as well. Crimea as mentioned above will dampen Syrian Muslim resolves a lot, given the sheer difference in climate between the two places.
It's also bordered by Russians, who hate the Muslims almost as much as Rhomania given its history with the Tatars. No fifth-column there.
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Now there's an idea. Just send the men and older women to Cyprus and Crete, put the children through the orphanages. Ethnic cleansing is an old, old hat for Romans by this point, after all.
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Evilprodigy
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If they are going to be treated like shit anyways they could always be sent to the Sugar Plantations.
I doubt they'd be happy about a bunch of backwards fanatics filling up their lands, considering how well they'd go hand in hand with the hostile corsairs just across the sea.
After all, they might intrigue with the Marinids to get Andalusia under Marinid rule again.
The educated minority of artisans, maybe. They'd actually contribute to the economy without unduly shifting the internal balance of power.
Donald Reaver
Donor
The problem with these discussions of where to ship the Muslims of southern Egypt to, is that they have not yet been conquered. At this point the Romans seem to be going for some sort of peace treaty which will leave the Muslims in control of the lands they now hold.
At some future date if a treaty can be hammered out, there may be a new war but until then the population will be staying where it is. The Roman government has too much to deal with at this point to try to do anything else in Egypt.
At some future date if a treaty can be hammered out, there may be a new war but until then the population will be staying where it is. The Roman government has too much to deal with at this point to try to do anything else in Egypt.
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...I just realized this discussion was for the Muslims of Egypt.
I was having the entire conversation on the basis of relocating the Syrian Muslims.
Well.
Well, putting the Syrian Muslims in Bulgaria/Serbia/Crimea would help in removing kebab from Levant. Maybe do the same for Egypt.
So the egyptian muslims have the chance of a lifetime to get their independence, but they might throw it away due to different opinions how to achieve it (negotiations vs. fighting). Is there a chance it will end like in "Monty Python’s Life of Brian" where the rebels kill each other while the romans are watching?
Coptic reunion
As a Copt, this sounds like a homecoming. Coptic tradition holds that Copts are descended from Pharaohs and our land was taken over by Arab Muslims in the 7th century.
Pharaoh might be an interesting title for a Coptic despot.
Theologically, however, we're pretty similar to the Greeks.
As a Copt, this sounds like a homecoming. Coptic tradition holds that Copts are descended from Pharaohs and our land was taken over by Arab Muslims in the 7th century.
Pharaoh might be an interesting title for a Coptic despot.
Theologically, however, we're pretty similar to the Greeks.
Evilprodigy
Donor
Doesn't the title of Pharaoh have connotations of heresy though since Pharaohs claimed to be gods or sons of gods themselves? It could also could be a bit too associated with Paganism to work for the title of a Christian nation.
Romans themselves had no problem with titles, honors, and offices derived from their pre-Christian religious practices. Heck, the Pope himself is 'Pontifex Maximus' which was very much a pagan title in origin.
Evilprodigy
Donor
Which Romans are these? The Byzantines, TTL Rhomans, Post-Constantine Romans when the Empire was still alive?
Billy Boy Mark II: The Romans know that their current possession of Jeddah and the threat it represents to Mecca is a major bargaining chip, so they’re not willing to give it up lightly. Iskandar can offer a far better price than Hassan can.
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Evilprodigy: The Crimea is loyal and wholly Orthodox. It is also a short hop on the Imperial fleet for the guard tagmata to pay a visit to settle any ‘disturbances’.
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HanEmpire: One of the ways in which the Romans find the Bedouins useful is that the Bedouins have no qualms about selling Muslim rebels into captivity. There are many Latin traders in the Levant who are happy to take a cargo of slaves to work in the Madeira plantations. The Roman plantation owners though don’t want Muslim slaves. The black slaves they get already are more motivated and trustworthy as work really does set them free once they hit their work quota.
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Alexandria Eschate: Al-Andalus wouldn’t want them. As HanEmpire points out, the refugees might make common cause with the corsairs and that is far too big of a risk to take.
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Donald Reaver: Agreed. As far as Rhomania is concerned, Egypt south of Cairo can fall into a hole for all they care (it would be considered an improvement actually). They don’t want to deal with it if they don’t have to. There are far bigger issues that need to be dealt with.
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Floppy seal 99: One issue with removing the Syrian Muslims is that replacements need to be brought in, otherwise interior Syria has been turned into a deserted wasteland. It is hard to guard against the likes of Iskandar with that as substantial guard forces need local food production. The Bedouins won’t be enough as in hard years they need the resources of the agricultural areas to survive.
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Norlag: I think that any TL that has people or societies acting consistently rationally is unrealistic. People can act irrationally in support of a goal that benefits them, or act rationally in support of a goal that is really a bad idea. The Idwaits have an opportunity for peace that would benefit them. But that doesn’t guarantee they won’t blow it.
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Yousefhanna: Pharaoh has too many connotations of Egyptian independence to be palatable to Roman eyes. Despot falls in nicely in the Roman title hierarchy and is clearly subservient to the Emperor.
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