True. There's nothing more Roman than a civil war every couple of generations. Everything else you might associate with them disappeared at one point or another except the civil wars. They maintained that tradition to the very end.
An Age of Miracles III: The Romans Endure
- Thread starter Basileus444
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Ironically, ITTL it's the Romans who have the siege mentality and who are unfortunately acting in much the same way as OTL Russians have, acting pointlessly belligerent in a bid for security and undermining their position in the process. I plan for the rise of Russia as a great power to play a major part in breaking that trend in the Romans. While Romans and Russia aren't guaranteed to always be best buddies, having a generally friendly and powerful Russia does a lot to undermine the 'we are alone in a hostile world that wants to kill us' mindset.
Yeah, 'like' really doesn't seem like an appropriate verb here.
I figure there are some naval facilities for repair and construction in Thessaloniki, but no provincial squadron is based there. The Piraeus, Smyrna, Crete, and Rhodes squadrons cover any potential hostile approaches into the Aegean, while Constantinople functions as the main reserve station, so having ships at Thessaloniki would be superfluous.
That's how I feel. The Far East could be the biggest thorn, since if Russia and Japan were to start fighting over Korea, the Romans would be in a very awkward position. (Which is one possible way to avoid any such conflicts between Russia and Japan, since the Romans would lift heaven and earth to avoid being put in such a conundrum.)
As for foreign intervention, definitely put a pin in that. It will be very important.
I know I was being deliberately silly in an earlier response post, but this civil war is somewhat different than earlier ones. Earlier ones were over who was Emperor, while this one, if one is really being honest, is over who gets to control the Emperor. That is admittedly a rather fine distinction, but the second can be more easily channeled into nonviolent methods than the former. After all, in the UK, the monarch is the titular head of state, but who gets to decide what laws get put in front of said monarch to sign is determined by elections, not wars.
My plan is for this to be the last civil war. (This doesn't count as a war of succession in my book, since both sides acknowledge Herakleios III as the rightful ruler.) Political wrangling still continues, but it gets institutionalized and bureaucratized into 'who gets to control the government', which can be done with nonviolent means, whereas switching monarchs involves a coup at best and a war at worst.
(Qualifier: It is possible I may break this rule, but that would be in the modern period where said civil war would be much more explicitly ideological, like the Russian or Spanish Civil Wars. I have no plans for such a thing, and no leaning to do so, but I say this now so as to keep that option open.)
I wasn't expecting the 39 Articles to come up eventually, but now seemed like a too-obvious-to-ignore moment for the Copts to bring up the matter. The Copts are an interesting case. On a Doylist level, I want them to eventually become 'Coptic-Romans', but it's hard to work that on a Watsonian level. The Copts are heretics by Orthodox standards, and this is at a time when Orthodoxy is a key part of Roman identity, and frankly Byzantine treatment of the Copts back when they had Egypt IOTL Late Antiquity is not promising. Add in the Roman desire to exploit Egypt as a colony, exporting Egyptian grain and cotton, and then turning around and selling that cotton back as textiles. (Makes good money-making sense from the Roman POV, but any Egyptian trying to start their own textile industry is going to be mad.)
Ironically, good Egyptian performance in this war, even at Roman expense might help with this. It would make the Romans respect the Copts more as a power.
Methinks the aftermath of the Egyptian issue will encourage Egyptians to consider independence.
Easiest way (well, "easy") would be for the Romans to pay off the Russians and Japanese and make Koreans a Roman ally or client state or something, with the understanding that Korea will not be used by either side to undermine the other while keeping it in friendly hands.
I'd say integration and granting of full rights (freedom of religion and everything) as core Romans must be a first step for Romano-Copts to happen. Give it 100 years of same treatment from Constantinople and views and feeling will change a bit. Not fully, but more in "acceptance" way, like Scots in UK.
How to get integration, no idea at this point. But you can guide the story that way. Perphaps a sweet deal offered by Constantinople? (freedom of religion, tariff union, investment in Egypt...) And good thing with being a (mostly) absolute monarchy and not a republic is that just two or three consecutive emperors with that policy could be enough to push this past the hostile populace and make it a new normal.
If Egypt lasts as part of the empire till whatever ttl version of the enlightenment is then I think they'll be good. The biggest deal breaker for alot of minorities in the Imperial system is orthodoxy as a requirement to be seen as equal, when that is dropped when more modern thinking becomes popular I think it won't be particularly hard for the Romans to foster a sense of belonging in the Eastern Mediterranean considering their other policies
Then I think it's critical that Rhomania and Russia become strong allies and longtime friends before the Vlachia issue spills over in the far future. I'm not really sure if both nations have that kind of relationship (Russia's seemingly neutral but friendly with Rhomania as of now) but hopefully, they will once the Tourmarches are dealt with.
Being friendly with Russia could be even more important to Rhomania in the future since Scythia and Russia itself could provide large amounts of grain, raw materials, and other foodstuffs to the Roman Empire if they were willing to seriously tap into it. Through the Rhomania-in-the-East, Egypt, and Russia, Constantinople could revitalize itself by trading local manufactured goods along with stuff from the East in exchange for raw metals, cotton, and grain from Egypt and Russia. From there, Hellas, Anatolia, and the rest of the Roman Empire could benefit from this renewed trade with Russia.
It's worrying that no one in Rhomania aside from Konon has a new and fresh idea about how to deal with the Emperorship. Even Sophia just wants to get rid of the Tourmarches but nothing past that.
Perhaps there are some Roman politicians or philosophers willing to devise a new system of succession after the Tourmarches, but haven't done so because of the risk of treason. I did refer to the Roman Kingdom model a long while back, but it would be hilarious if Romans looked back on the system that their Republican ancestors despised and thought "This is a great system for selecting an autocratic Emperor!"
If the private sentiments of the Tourmarches became public knowledge, that would certainly (and rightly) enrage many Copts.
I was thinking something like a Siam situation. The presence of a China that likely can't be ignored if one doesn't want serious unpleasant things further complicates the issue.
The religious issue is definitely the elephant in the room. (This is a major advantage classical Roman identity had over Byzantine Roman identity.) To use an OTL example, Coptic Christians can be fully a part of a secular Egypt, but not if a core part of being Egyptian is being Islamic. The key is turning Orthodox Rhomania (what it is now) into a secular Rhomania, which is easier said than done. (Not saying it's impossible, far from it.)
Russia would be the biggest certainly; it already has almost double the population of the Imperial heartland. It will likely be bigger ITTL, partly just from being bigger than OTL Russia (Ukraine and Belarus would not be, or consider themselves to be, separate countries). But there is also my desire to have TTL population peak around 5-6 billion, which renders any OTL and TTL population comparisons rather difficult.
I'm planning on this coming up later in this arc, where Sophia and those around her realize that they do need to offer more than 'get rid of the Tourmarches', which spark some ideas for possible reforms.
Rhomania's General Crisis, Part 12.2: Choosing Sides, Part 3
Rhomania’s General Crisis, part 12.2-Choosing Sides, Part 3:
The Pit of the Forsaken, the White Palace, November 19, 1661:
Adam looked across the chamber that was Room 14 at the man. The man was much smaller than he had been six weeks earlier. His stocky well-built frame had dwindled to not much more than the cliché skin-and-bones. His clothing was in tatters, showing dusky skin covered in dirt and sores, his hair matted with sweat and teeming with lice. There was no blood or vomit on the floor, but that was because Adam had just had the room cleaned.
Father Andronikos was ever so faintly whimpering as his breath rasped like leather being torn, restrained in a chair while Adam made some notes. The recorder sat silently while Adam finished and looked at the final person in the chamber.
This was Tourmarch Thomas Maios, 1st Tourmarch of the Athanatoi and right-hand man of Strategos Plytos. He looked a bit young for his position in Adam’s opinion, but fit perfectly the profile of tall, dark, and handsome. The Tourmarch frowned. “He still hasn’t agreed to cooperate. My superiors are getting impatient.”
“This is a most careful case. It would hardly suit your superiors if the subject pretended to agree to cooperate, but then publicly denounced them.”
“Attempting such deceit seems out of character, even for something like this.”
“I agree, but best to be sure. He must agree to cooperate, and his will must be genuinely broken, before I certify his useability.”
“And so far, you have yet to do either.”
Adam resisted the urge to snarl. The man’s perfectly tailored uniform, the precisely-trimmed nails and beard, and the hint of perfume, was entirely out of place here. This was Adam’s domain, and this brat was just an unwelcome guest in it.
“That is about to change.”
“I don’t see it.”
“Which is why I am running this and not you.” Adam enjoyed the flash of annoyance in the officer’s face. “His will is just about to break. One more slight push and it will.”
“Then get on with it.”
“His will is about to break, but so is his body. It would hardly do if he ended up dying. Then you’d just have a body, and that’s not very helpful. He needs a rest session, but next time he is processed he will yield and do what your superiors desire.”
“Very well,” the Tourmarch grumbled.
Adam rang a bell and a pair of guards entered, Adam ordering them to take the prisoner to his cell. After they’d left, the Tourmarch started to exit too, but before he did, he turned back to look at Adam. “Does it ever bother you, what you do?” The last word sneered with disgust.
Adam’s eyes narrowed. “If it did, I certainly would not tell you. And you have no right to judge me, boy. Only God can do that. And he will have far more than just me on his docket. I may do the dirty work, while you sit up there in the sun with your perfumes and your sweet buns, but I only do that work because people like your superiors, and you, desire it.”
“We do what we do for the good of the state.”
“Then the same applies to my work. But if you really believed that, why do you ask me if my work, which you order, bothers me? About whose conscience are you really inquiring?”
* * *
All of his body hurt, but the sharp pangs had thankfully faded. Now it was just a constant dull throbbing, an endless ache that seeped through his bones and the stretched and twisted remnants of his guts. This ache never faded, he knew, at least until he did what they wanted.
Andronikos shifted, leaning up against the cool stone wall of his cell, dim flickers of light coming through the barred window that was set in the door. He moaned, a sound which almost, but not quite, drowned out that of the scampering rats. He’d named several. The nearest sounded like Nereas, jaunty, happy, as if he enjoyed being a rat, unlike the others. The others stole some of what little food Andronikos received, but they did that only to survive, for they too needed to eat. But Nereas seemed to do it for the pleasure.
It sounded like just Nereas for now, although there were others. Yet Andronikos had not named any of them Adam. For he was an honest man, and he would not insult an honest man that way.
Everything Adam had ever told him had been the truth. Everything. And that was brought Andronikos Hadjipapandreou to despair, for that included what he had said about his body and his will when they had first meant. Andronikos had prided himself on his physical fitness, and while that was wasted away, his vanity had enabled him to endure Adam’s tortures, so that his will would break before his body did. Andronikos knew Adam was right. That the next time he was in that room, his will would finally break. He would do what was demanded of him, no matter what it was, even if it went against everything he’d ever believed, because he just could not take any more.
He knew it was sinful, blasphemous, but he could think of no other way out. And so he prayed to God. He prayed to God that he might die.
The door to his cell opened, which was not the response he’d expected. The guard looked at him and then set down a tray. Andronikos’s eyes had adjusted to the dim light enough to see the bowl of porridge and the jug of wine, the usual miserable fare that was his diet. Then he saw a nearly fist-sized orange block next to the bowl, a hunk of cheese, something he had not seen since he had entered this world below.
He lunged for it, crying out as his fingers touched it. Taking a bite, he moaned, not a cry of pain. Frankly, it sounded rather sensual. In the world above, he had never been without some cheese, one of his weird eccentricities, but not down here. Here, that small pathetic comfort had been denied him, and now that paltry thing was the most wonderous thing.
It was low-quality cheese, but that didn’t matter anymore. His teeth tore into it as he devoured it, pausing only to snarl at the rats gathering on, the sheer venom in that snarl making them scurry away; they were not used to such fire. And though he had just prayed for death, the presence of food in his system awakened dormant instincts. The porridge and wine did not long outlast the cheese.
Andronikos slumped back against the wall, exhausted after that sudden burst of exertion. That miserable repast, which even the dockworkers in his apartment would have considered threadbare, had been the most wonderfully-tasting meal he had ever had.
Now he felt drowsy. On the one hand, he wanted to fight it, for sleep would bring that moment closer, when he returned to the chamber and Adam would make his demand, and Andronikos would no longer be able to deny him. But he just felt so tired…
He also felt something else. No. He didn’t feel something else. That unending suffocating ache was gone; despite the food, his body felt empty now. Yet…Another feeling now started to fill his body this time, but not pain. It was like that fuzzy warmth one felt when one woke up, all wrapped up snuggly in one’s blanket, but not just on the outside. Like the ache, it flowed through him, filling his body and seeping through his bones.
Then he heard a voice. It did not sound like one of the guards. For a moment, Andronikos could not understand, and then he gasped. He had not been condemned for his prayer. The voice knew why he had asked such a thing, and it did not judge him for that. It understood, and it was proud of him.
Andronikos wept, and as the tears flowed, in addition to hearing, he saw.
The last thing Father Andronikos Hadjipapandreou saw before he died was his God smiling at him.
* * *
Adam turned right at the intersection and looked down the street, which sloped downhill, and paused for a moment. He looked above the sea of reddish-brown tiles and the various traces of smoke from numerous cooking fires. Up in the wide blue, clouds danced, traces and tumblers, puffs and piles. The world above tended to think little of such things, but after a stint in the world below, Adam found many to be quite beautiful. He started walking down the street.
Logistically, it had been an easy thing to lace Andronikos’s food and drink. It was not the first time he had provided poison. He had done it for a father, and then for his son, and finally for the daughter.
But this one was a bit different. Andronikos’s death before he cooperated would be a black mark on his record, but Adam’s was too robust now to be affected much. Still, why had he done it? Adam could hardly have refused the three, even if he had wanted to, but that was hardly the case with Andronikos.
Perhaps it had to do with those who’d demanded Adam work on Andronikos. It was true that all of Adam’s masters had wanted men like him, but that did not mean that they were all exactly the same. Adam practiced great cruelties; he was not so vain and fatuous as to pretend otherwise. Yet the cruelty was a means to an end, and Adam was quite proud of the many times when he had achieved the end without resorting to that means. But his new masters did not think that way, and sometimes it felt like the cruelty was the point, and with that, Adam could not agree.
Perhaps it had to do with Andronikos. Adam had tortured many men, and to be blunt, he felt that many had deserved punishment, although perhaps some not quite so severely. Yet Andronikos was certainly not one of them.
The sound of a door opening interrupted his thoughts, and then a pair of high-pitched shrieks. “Grandpa!” came the cry, and the welcome pain as his two granddaughters, seven and four, plowed into him.
Adam laughed, hugging them both tightly as they clutched at his shirt and pant legs, and then he looked up. His daughter was standing in the doorframe, smiling at him, looking tired but happy. She wiped her brow and then placed her hand on her highly pregnant belly. She looked so much like her mother thirty years ago that sometimes it hurt.
As Adam walked, he knew those earlier rationalizations were wrong. Only God and he would know what he had done, and Adam had done this for himself. He had done it, to prove to himself, that despite history, despite the past, despite the pain, horror, and cruelty, despite what he’d done and would do, despite it all…
Somehow, a piece of his soul survived.
Wonder if we'll get an update on the eastern front. Also what happened to Egypt's Muslims?
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how big is the population of the copt also is Andreas niketas family still rules there ?
I wonder if hadjipapadreou's death will kick the Constantinopolitan mob in to action
Cryostorm
Donor
All but gone, most rebelled and either made that TTL landlocked Sudan that mostly separates Egypt and Ethiopian, outside of the coast, or fled to other Muslim kingdoms in the region.
Adam had one rule, and he stuck to it in the end.
The cruelty must have a point.
Unfortunately, he couldn't just deny his masters, and a cruel mercy had to do. The old man had to be broken before he could die. Anything too early would be suspicious. But this way, the masters would never guess him to be the culprit, and he is still in place should a situation like this arise in the future.
The cruelty must have a point.
Unfortunately, he couldn't just deny his masters, and a cruel mercy had to do. The old man had to be broken before he could die. Anything too early would be suspicious. But this way, the masters would never guess him to be the culprit, and he is still in place should a situation like this arise in the future.