An Age of Miracles III: The Romans Endure

[Cryostorm]

Well, things are going to get really interesting really quickly in Constantinople. As for the east, Iskander pretty much has free reign to roll up all the way to Mosul and absorb independent Mesopotamia with almost no fighting, so long as he gives good terms to the current despot and the citizenry.

 

[Aristomenes]

In the confusion, an agent of the Tourmarches, placed to keep an eye on the Domestikos, manages to get a close look at his papers. The late Doukas was a soldier, but clearly not a conspirator. The agent sees all manner of correspondence, amply documenting his connection with Athena and their plans against the Tourmarches and much of the extent of the web Athena has been trying to weave around them. He immediately gathers the evidence and rushes to send warning to his masters. But at the same time, an agent of Athena, there for the same reason, realizes what is happening, and urgently sends a warning of his own.

So, it is a race against time (and against the opponent side). Who will be notified first?
What a cliffhanger!

 

[Trevayne]

The objective is not to blast the fortifications apart. For that he would need modern high explosives, as black powder cannons firing solid shot are not good earth movers. The goal is to pin the enemy troops down and allow the Roman infantry to advance close without being shot down on the approach.

Good update leading to a nice cliffhanger, but I was a little puzzled by this.

AFIAK explosive shells using gunpowder started to be used in OTL by the Chinese in the 13th century. They were in use in Europe by 16th or 17th centuries. I was under the impression that Rhomania was as or more advanced, so would expect cast iron shells with gunpowder fillings for sieges. I don't think they were used for field battles because of the difficulties of getting the fuze timing right (no impact fuzes, just cloth impregnated with gunpowder that could not be timed precisely). Shells that don't explode near enemy troops are useless, but those that explode inside a besieged city or fort will do some damage even if they explode several minutes after impact.

Maybe Doukas' army was not fully equipped for a siege and did not have shells?

Shell (projectile) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Mousey]

Good update leading to a nice cliffhanger, but I was a little puzzled by this.

AFIAK explosive shells using gunpowder started to be used in OTL by the Chinese in the 13th century. They were in use in Europe by 16th or 17th centuries. I was under the impression that Rhomania was as or more advanced, so would expect cast iron shells with gunpowder fillings for sieges. I don't think they were used for field battles because of the difficulties of getting the fuze timing right (no impact fuzes, just cloth impregnated with gunpowder that could not be timed precisely). Shells that don't explode near enemy troops are useless, but those that explode inside a besieged city or fort will do some damage even if they explode several minutes after impact.

Maybe Doukas' army was not fully equipped for a siege and did not have shells?

Shell (projectile) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's not just a matter of having explosive filled projectile. It's a matter of the quality of explosive (blackpowder vs. industrial era explosives), the shape and strength of the projectile shell allowing for penetration of the earth (or armour), and because of the shape, the rifling of the artillery that fires it to ensure the shell is accurate and remains directed.

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

I suppose a status quo ante bellum scenario looks possible.

Also speaking of the nationalism thing, I believe some people in Rhomania would try to pursue the civic/cultural nationalism thing by emphasizing identity on Roman-ness (whatever that's supposed to mean), Orthodox Christianity, and a history of defending themselves against non-Orthodox invaders. That would be my guess. As for the Greek language, it would be inevitable that it would be the main language of the empire since too many people speak it to not be the main official language.

 

[Trevayne]

It's not just a matter of having explosive filled projectile. It's a matter of the quality of explosive (blackpowder vs. industrial era explosives), the shape and strength of the projectile shell allowing for penetration of the earth (or armour), and because of the shape, the rifling of the artillery that fires it to ensure the shell is accurate and remains directed.

That isn't the point. The impression was that Rhomania was unaware of shell because they needed modern or at least 19th century explosives. That shouldn't have been the case. There were lots of people using spherical shells filled with blackpowder.

No, they aren't as good as bullet shaped shells with high explosive fillers fired from rifled guns, but they still did the job.

 

[ByzantineMan]

Damaging or not the reality of the thing is that the empire IS a Greek nation state and this hasn't been exactly a new development, you can date it back to the time of the Arab conquests. When the population of the core empire is 75-80% Greek with assimilation continuing inexorably, then what you end up with is with Roman equaling Greek and vice versa with Romios and Hellene used interchangeably by the population... just like OTL one might note,

Does this mean that say an Albanian or a Helvetian would be excluded from said Greek identity? One might note that many of the leading proponents of Greek nationalism in OTL were Vlach and Albanian speaking, they both considered themselves Greek and were considered as Greek by the Greek speaking majority, with none bothered over the distinction. What would make Greek TTL nationalism exclusionary to differentiate it from the OTL path? If you speak Tagalog at home TTL but claim to be Greek, as described above, why you won't be accepted as one? You will be. Much to the horror of TTL Western Europeans who will be likely claiming the TTL Greeks aren't really Greek since they are not pure bred descendants of the ancients but who cares?

Are there possible breakdowns in the above? I'd say there is an obvious one... that proves the concept that the core empire is a strongly assimilationist, Greek nation state with a strongly inclusionary identity on whom it considers as Greek. The Despotates of course. What are the despotates if not the areas where the assimilationist model of the core could not work due to a strong local identity that could not be readily assimilated unlike the core empire? So the Egyptians were effectively given their own autonomous nation state to play with... while in Sicily how is Sicily breaking down at the moment? In rebellion of the Italian catholic population that does not feel part of the core identity against the Italiote Greek populations that do...

It is my understanding as well that IOTL, Greeks referred to themselves as Romans even after the fall of Constantinople, and calling the Emperor "King of the Greeks" in medieval times was considered a deliberate snub. "Greek" overtaking "Roman" IOTL was in part inspired by a fascination with ancient Greece by western European policy makers. So is there any drive or reason for Greek and Roman to be separate ITTL, where the Empire is still very much alive? It seems like a push for non-ethnic nationalism/patriotism sort of needs "Roman" to be bigger than "Greek" and I don't see the respective forces for that to be happening ITTL.

 

[SB4]

I don't think the empire will have a problem with fostering a Roman identity in the areas directly administered by it, the vast majority of people are greek speakers, are loyal to the emperor (varies depending on quality of said emperor) and are orthodox Christians, the ones who arent like the armenians and some syrian minorities are treated very well and have been properly integrated. The problem for them will be fostering this identity in the despotates, I could see it being done if they drop the Orthodox Christian requirement so as to not permanently exclude millions who would never convert, perhaps as part of a cultural shift during TTL enlightenment. Will probably be most effective in sicily where you can play upon the nostalgia of italy being the birthplace of the empire, double effective cause the city of Rome itself is controlled by the empire too, a bit of investment in it would probably help winning the hearts and minds of the Italians. Sicily also is already very heavily populated by greek orthodox so there would be even less work to do. However like I said earlier, in order for any pan-eastern mediterranean identity to form and not be dead on arrival orthodoxy as a requirement will have to be dropped, its too much of a deal breaker for too many people. If you also encourage investment in the economies of the despotates and encourage despotic citizens to take part in industries across the Roman world then you reduce the feeling of just being punching bags and resource extractors for constantinople and replace it with a feeling of belonging as part of a much bigger whole.

 

[Raistarling]

I don't think the empire will have a problem with fostering a Roman identity in the areas directly administered by it, the vast majority of people are greek speakers, are loyal to the emperor (varies depending on quality of said emperor) and are orthodox Christians, the ones who arent like the armenians and some syrian minorities are treated very well and have been properly integrated. The problem for them will be fostering this identity in the despotates, I could see it being done if they drop the Orthodox Christian requirement so as to not permanently exclude millions who would never convert, perhaps as part of a cultural shift during TTL enlightenment. Will probably be most effective in sicily where you can play upon the nostalgia of italy being the birthplace of the empire, double effective cause the city of Rome itself is controlled by the empire too, a bit of investment in it would probably help winning the hearts and minds of the Italians. Sicily also is already very heavily populated by greek orthodox so there would be even less work to do. However like I said earlier, in order for any pan-eastern mediterranean identity to form and not be dead on arrival orthodoxy as a requirement will have to be dropped, its too much of a deal breaker for too many people. If you also encourage investment in the economies of the despotates and encourage despotic citizens to take part in industries across the Roman world then you reduce the feeling of just being punching bags and resource extractors for constantinople and replace it with a feeling of belonging as part of a much bigger whole.

I disagree on the Italians. I feel like the entire peninsula will never become Roman at this point, simply because the Catholics suffered too much under Roman control. What I think is feasable is using the divide between Orthodox and Catholic Italians to make the South (I am unsure which areas are Orthodox majority) willingly join Rome. Best way to do that would be to rescue them when there is a civil war, and pushing the narrative that they are different from the Catholic Italians. After a Civil War, they would be a lot more likely to want to disassociate themselfs from the the other Italians. Only real question I have is, is there enough Orthodox Italians/Greeks in Southern Italy to justify such a move?

 

[Beaufortq]

Well it keeps getting more exciting, I'm definitely in the Athena Team but if they win who should be Emperor? Can the Empress still have children so a change of ruler is unnecessary with the current one remaining as an impotent figurehead or does the Grand Karaman perhaps claim the title for himself? And then there's the Komnenos in Mesopotamia to consider as well I believe.

Rooting for the last one since I've always had a soft spot for that dynasty and there can never be enough of them on the imperial throne.

 

[SB4]

I disagree on the Italians. I feel like the entire peninsula will never become Roman at this point,

I agree, I used "Italian" in the context of the city of Rome and the despotate of sicily

 

[Raistarling]

I agree, I used "Italian" in the context of the city of Rome and the despotate of sicily

Sorry, I missread it a bit, but my point is still the same. The Despotate is deeply divided (at least it was the last time we looked at it) between the Orthodox upper class and the Catholic peasentry. The Catholics have been suppresed and beaten down since the occupation of Italy started again. They even tried to convert them to Rhomaoi (Greek) and probably treated them worse then Central Anatolian Muslims. I dont think this kind of history can be washed away by anything really, so I don't think Catholic Italians will ever want to be Roman. Again, because I have no idea what percentage is the Orthodox community compared to the Catholic one I can't tell you how much of the Despotate can be kept under direct Roman rule, but all of the Despotate would be an overreach, that would end in religious conflict.

 

[ByzantineMan]

I don't think the empire will have a problem with fostering a Roman identity in the areas directly administered by it, the vast majority of people are greek speakers, are loyal to the emperor (varies depending on quality of said emperor) and are orthodox Christians, the ones who arent like the armenians and some syrian minorities are treated very well and have been properly integrated. The problem for them will be fostering this identity in the despotates, I could see it being done if they drop the Orthodox Christian requirement so as to not permanently exclude millions who would never convert, perhaps as part of a cultural shift during TTL enlightenment. Will probably be most effective in sicily where you can play upon the nostalgia of italy being the birthplace of the empire, double effective cause the city of Rome itself is controlled by the empire too, a bit of investment in it would probably help winning the hearts and minds of the Italians. Sicily also is already very heavily populated by greek orthodox so there would be even less work to do. However like I said earlier, in order for any pan-eastern mediterranean identity to form and not be dead on arrival orthodoxy as a requirement will have to be dropped, its too much of a deal breaker for too many people. If you also encourage investment in the economies of the despotates and encourage despotic citizens to take part in industries across the Roman world then you reduce the feeling of just being punching bags and resource extractors for constantinople and replace it with a feeling of belonging as part of a much bigger whole.

The point about Armenians articulates another way of integrating minorities: no other good option. Armenians, regardless of their non-Orthodox religious preference, have had a lot of incentives to throw their lot in with the Romans over time, being a small Christian minority in an otherwise hostile middle eastern environment. Additionally, they haven't had their own state to draw legitimacy from (a united Armenia hasn't existed in forever at this point ITTL). So they go in with Rome because it is (correctly) their best chance at survival in the long run. I don't see this applying to Catholic Italians in Sicily, but it should apply to the Copts, as it was the Byzantines that turned the keys of state over to them and stopped them from being a permanent minority in a Muslim state. So the Copts, based on this understanding, should be MORE loyal, not less, to the state.

 

[Lascaris]

It is my understanding as well that IOTL, Greeks referred to themselves as Romans even after the fall of Constantinople, and calling the Emperor "King of the Greeks" in medieval times was considered a deliberate snub. "Greek" overtaking "Roman" IOTL was in part inspired by a fascination with ancient Greece by western European policy makers. So is there any drive or reason for Greek and Roman to be separate ITTL, where the Empire is still very much alive? It seems like a push for non-ethnic nationalism/patriotism sort of needs "Roman" to be bigger than "Greek" and I don't see the respective forces for that to be happening ITTL.

Ἰωάννης ἐν Χριστῷ τῷ Θεῷ πιστός βασιλεύς καί αὐτοκράτωρ Ῥωμαίων ὁ Δοῦκας τῷ ἁγιωτάτῳ πάπᾳ τῆς πρεσβυτέρας Ῥώμης Γρηγορίῳ σωτηρίας καί εὐχῶν αἴτησιν…»
…Ἐσήμαινε δέ τό τοιοῦτον γράμμα , ὅτι τε ἐν τῷ γένει τῶν Ἑλλήνων ἡμῶν ἡ σοφία βασιλεύει , καί, ὡς ἐκ πηγῆς ταύτης παναταχοῦ ρανίδες ἀνέβλυσαν· καί δέον ἐστίν ἡμᾶς, τῇ ἀπό ταύτης λαμπούμενου διακρίσει, τήν τοῦ σοῦ θρόνου μή ἀγνοεῖν ἀρχαιότητα·
…Εἶτα σύ μέν ἀπαιτεῖς ἡμᾶς μή ἀγνοῆσαι τόν σόν θρόνον καί τά τούτου προνόμια·
ἡμεῖς δέ οὐκ ἀνταπαιτήσομεν σε διαβλέψαι τε καί γνῶναι τον προςόν ἡμίν δἴκαιον ἐς τήν ἀρχήν τε καί τό κράτος τῆς Κωνσταντινουπόλεως, ὅ τήν ἀρχήν μέν ἔλαβεν ἀπό τῶν χρόνων του μεγάλου Κωνσταντίνου, διά πλείστων δέ ὁδεύσαι τῶν ἀρξάντων μετ’ ἐκεῖνον ἐκ τοῦ ἠμετέρου γένους, καί ἐς ὅλην χιλιετηρίδα παραταθέν, ἄχρι καί ἡμῶν ἔφτασεν;
Αὐτίκα οἱ τῆς βασιλείας μου γενάρχαι, οἱ ἀπό το γένος τῶν Δουκῶν καί Κομνηνῶν, ἵνα μή τους ἐτέρους λέγω, τούς ἀπό γενῶν ἑλληνικῶν ἄρξαντας· οὗτοι γοῦν οἱ ἐκ τοῦ ἐμοῦ γένους, εἰς πολλάς ἐτῶν ἐκατοστύας τήν ἀρχή κατέσχον τῆς Κωνσταντινουπόλεως·

What we are reading here?

First John, faithful to Christ basileus and autokrator of the Romans"
Then "in our race of the Greeks wisdom rules"
Then "it is right that the rule of the state of Constatinople, which received the rule from the time of Constantine the Great, and ruled my many of our race after him for a whole millennium, came to us.
Then "the ancestors of my reign, from the Dukas and Comnenos families, I won't mention the others from Greek families who ruled, as the former are my own family, for many centuries held the Rule of Constantinople"

That is John III Vatatzes writing to pope Gregory IX. John III as in the father of Theodore II Lascaris who is the POD of this timeline. I think I'll rest my case about whether the term "Greek" was used or not and if it was utilized interchangeably with "Roman" by the late Byzantine era.

 

[SB4]

That is John III Vatatzes writing to pope Gregory IX. John III as in the father of Theodore II Lascaris who is the POD of this timeline. I think I'll rest my case about whether the term "Greek" was used or not and if it was utilized interchangeably with "Roman" by the late Byzantine era.

That was in OTL after the empire had lost pretty much everything except the western coast of anatolia and hellas itself. In this timeline with the empire reconquering pretty much everything it owned in 395 and then some in one way or another I doubt they'd be as willing to use greek as a national identifier considering it would leave out Albanians, turks, melkites, armenians etc who someone living in Athens will find just as Roman as himself

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

Considering folks are asking about who becomes Emperor next, I wonder where the Emperors younger brother is now? Last I recall he was on a bit of a world tour? My money would be that either they'd install him, or like the Tourmarches you'd have a rubber-stamp Emperor.

 

[Cryostorm]

Considering folks are asking about who becomes Emperor next, I wonder where the Emperors younger brother is now? Last I recall he was on a bit of a world tour? My money would be that either they'd install him, or like the Tourmarches you'd have a rubber-stamp Emperor.

If this was a different story they could always go the Swedish route of making the rubber-stamp the emperor.

 

[EmperorSimeon]

Just thought I'd post my idea of the Basileus throne room and white palace. Ai art from me. I hope Basileus444 doesn't mind.

 

[ImperatorAlexander]

Just thought I'd post my idea of the Basileus throne room and white palace. Ai art from me. I hope Basileus444 doesn't mind.

Looks really great, but not enough purple in the Throne Room!

 

[JohnSmith]

How about a novel solution - the Emperor finally realised what’s up and sees the writing on the wall? The Tourmarches power derives from him so if he takes it away they’re done.