An Age of Miracles III: The Romans Endure

No substitute for victory. Rome must win.

In truth, they should've gone to war in Africa. Expanded around Carthage against the Marinids. Weak foe and a Carthage indebted to the central power could be used as a counterweight to sicily

Easiest conquest could be the Kingdom of the Isles, even turning it into a puppet. Basically allows for significant projection into the western med
Inside Europe/Middle east Rome needs to accept the fact it has boundaries; it cannot push past. Outside of that it can project power, in Eastern Asia at least, build up subject and allied states. Anything over the Atlantic is a waste of time, except a minor island or two for prestige. Eastern Africa is well worth setting up trading stations.
 
Inside Europe/Middle east Rome needs to accept the fact it has boundaries; it cannot push past. Outside of that it can project power, in Eastern Asia at least, build up subject and allied states. Anything over the Atlantic is a waste of time, except a minor island or two for prestige. Eastern Africa is well worth setting up trading stations.
Like in the classical times, Rome here has pushed very much forward. Andreas Niketas basically recreated justinian's empire, but it was undone by Alexios and Alexiea starting the time of troubles.

Justinian's empire is the limit, but they can reach it if they play their cards right. And that means striking now while the Latins are bloodied and weak.
 
In truth, they should've gone to war in Africa. Expanded around Carthage against the Marinids. Weak foe and a Carthage indebted to the central power could be used as a counterweight to sicily
Problem with expanding outside of Carthage is that the second Roman soldiers leave the natives/Marinids will swoop back in. Only way you can keep a place like that is with thousands of troops and then you are basically hemorrhaging blood and treasure for sand.
 
Iskandar’s offers reach Constantinople, Athena urges Doukas to accept the terms. That will free up Doukas to join with Pirokolos and together overthrow the Tourmarches, at which point Athena will confirm the terms with the Shah. But these urgings arrive too late.)​

Forward it is, damnit. Forward it is.
Yep, the roman or atleast Athena is losing this
 
No substitute for victory. Rome must win.

In truth, they should've gone to war in Africa. Expanded around Carthage against the Marinids. Weak foe and a Carthage indebted to the central power could be used as a counterweight to sicily

Easiest conquest could be the Kingdom of the Isles, even turning it into a puppet. Basically allows for significant projection into the western med
Think there was a previous update detailing the rationale of picking Mesopotamia as an invasion target vs say Africa. Very helpful to understand the Roman mindset vs our perspectives as audience armchair generals.
His army may be little more than half of the Roman host that mustered on the plain of Nineveh, but in weight-of-cannon-shot, the army of Doukas has nearly a 75% lead.
Is this 75% vs the army at Nineveh or the current Ottoman force? Otherwise looks to be a lot of blood for not much gained on both sides…..
 
A great irony would be if this war leads to a Roman-Persian perpetual peace treaty but this one actually lasts
 
Arabic-influenced names don’t make sense by this point ITTL

I recall way back in the threads' history that the pro-Copt policies from Constantinople lead to large numbers of Arab christians to identify as Copts. Depending on how many arabic speaking populations remain, some areas may still have Arabic place names, though obviously not Islam influenced.

Interesting calculations. I certainly haven’t done any of that sort of math. But OTL population figures are highly likely to be a very poor guide to TTL rates, based on my plans. Indonesia’s population explosion is a 20th century phenomenon (at this time IOTL Indonesia + Philippines + Indochina combined had a population comparable just to France), and I’m pretty sure that is the case for both Turkey and Egypt. ITTL they’ll hit the demographic transition much earlier, especially the Roman metropole which I’m planning to look like the OTL French model. Plus, I’m also hoping for a world where the population peaks at 5-6 billion. So TTL demographics are, in a variety of ways, going to be quite different from OTL.

The latest estimate I've seen for OTL population is a peak at around 9-10 billion, which is why I gave Egypt and Metropolitan Rhomania 60 million instead of 100 million. That's completely arbitrary of course, but since I'm currently a doctoral student and have access to a lot of scholarly journals I'm looking around for sources that give an more thorough explanation for the demographic decline of the Ottomans, because that was arguably such a major reason behind their decline.
 
Problem with expanding outside of Carthage is that the second Roman soldiers leave the natives/Marinids will swoop back in. Only way you can keep a place like that is with thousands of troops and then you are basically hemorrhaging blood and treasure for sand.
Need the North African version of the Nile Germans. The Bagradas valley is pretty fertile land, I'm sure the Romans could attract settlers there if they wanted to.
 
The Tourmarches wanted to fight the Ottomans in order to safeguard the Imperial Heartland's flanks. Securing Carthagian hinterlands doesn't do anything for that, so the war would've been dismissed as wasteful by the stratocrats.
 
They've been through a torrent of shit ever since Andreas Niketas died. They deserve an actual victory - the Tourmarches are right when they speak of "mutilated victory"
We're getting into an era where borders (particularly in Europe) are getting increasingly rigid, and where expansion for expansion's sake becomes increasingly costly. Holding naval bases or exclaves in Sardinia or the rest of North Africa would be just about as strategically valuable to Rhomania to holding the land itself, without the problem of unruly subjects and less risk of drawing in other great powers. The greatest prize in that area would arguably be Gibraltar, which, with no/minimal adjustments to the map would give Rhomania a latter day Mare Nostrum through Naval Hegemony in the Mediterranean rather than direct control.
 
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They've been through a torrent of shit ever since Andreas Niketas died. They deserve an actual victory - the Tourmarches are right when they speak of "mutilated victory"
And that's the tides of history - sometimes a realm does well, sometimes they don't. If they were doing well constantly, this story wouldn't be interesting to read. I trust B444 to deliver a good story, and he's been doing that.

There's no good targets for the Toumarches, and the Ottomans are the best of the lot at the moment. North Africa won't be easily to hold until industrialization (and even then, it's difficult), any campaign in Italy will invite retribution from Spain and Arles, and any campaign in the Balkans may alienate the Vlachs and Hungary even more so. A war against the Ottomans had the potential to give tons of prestige to the Tourmarches, but as has been shown it was a terrible idea through and through. I'm hoping the Tourmarches get what's coming for them.
 
They've been through a torrent of shit ever since Andreas Niketas died. They deserve an actual victory - the Tourmarches are right when they speak of "mutilated victory"
Oddy literally marches east further than Alexander ever did and secured the eastern frontier for generations. Thats a great victory, shame the tourmaches thrown everything away.

Its not like the roman had any actual defeat since the time of troubles (sort of, they technically won but lost influence in Egypt, Sicily and lost the rest of Italy).

If anything recently there's a lot of wars the Romans should have actually lost but didn't. The whole iskandar debacle and the spanish-roman eastern war come to mind. Both were filled with brilliant victories by the other side but ended with a roman victory.
 
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Outside of that it can project power, in Eastern Asia at least, build up subject and allied states. Anything over the Atlantic is a waste of time, except a minor island or two for prestige. Eastern Africa is well worth setting up trading stations.
Personally, I still believe RITE is the best way that a post-Tourmarches Rhomania can acquire territory and resources with Vijayanagar's terminal decline and Bengal being completely decimated in the War of Wrath (so basically a power vacuum ripe for the taking). Europe is increasingly starting to become untenable for Rhomania to deal with diplomatically or militarily when their own Despotates are either struggling to get by or are chafing under their rule so they must look elsewhere for expansion.

Justinian's empire is the limit, but they can reach it if they play their cards right. And that means striking now while the Latins are bloodied and weak.
Yeah, the Triunes with Henri still in charge (who still remembers Odysseus obliterating Triune Bengal), Arles/Spain going strong, and a recovering Wittelsbach HRE (who will relish an opportunity to avenge Ulm for some legitimacy and nationalistic zeal) against a weakened Rhomania. Those aren't good odds for Constantinople despite what happened in the HRE.

The Tourmarches may have far greater experience against the dumb Latins but they're smart enough to know that fighting the Latins right now, even the HRE, would've been more disastrous than if they invaded some weak state like Mesopotamia, which they are losing right now. The precarious situation in Sicily probably makes that proposal even more untenable since no doubt that would've caused further tensions between the Orthodox and the Catholics at Naples/Barion, risking the security of the Empire itself.

They've been through a torrent of shit ever since Andreas Niketas died. They deserve an actual victory - the Tourmarches are right when they speak of "mutilated victory"
The Romans might have been under the gutter during the Time of Troubles and the War of Roman Succession but they were just at the cusp of clawing themselves out of that rut post-War of Wrath militarily, diplomatically, and economically. Given a few decades or so and Rhomania would've been in a far greater position to assert itself against the Latin West. However, the Tourmarches set that back by committing so much resources into a crippling war with very little tangible benefit aside from the ones they promised to their supporters, which is looking like that will not be a reality if the Romans lose this entire thing.

There's no good targets for the Toumarches, and the Ottomans are the best of the lot at the moment. North Africa won't be easily to hold until industrialization (and even then, it's difficult), any campaign in Italy will invite retribution from Spain and Arles, and any campaign in the Balkans may alienate the Vlachs and Hungary even more so. A war against the Ottomans had the potential to give tons of prestige to the Tourmarches, but as has been shown it was a terrible idea through and through. I'm hoping the Tourmarches get what's coming for them.
Exactly. For the sake of Roman survival and prosperity, the Tourmarches have to lose.
 
Ending the at this point 2000 year conflict between Greco-Roman and Persian civilisation permanently has so many benefits for both its not even funny, so much energy and resources can be diverted away from constantly looking over your shoulder in the fertile crescent and be put into projects which are much higher RoI ventures at this point. (India for the ottomans, the east indies and naval development for the romans)
 
Oddy literally marches east further than Alexander ever did and secured the eastern frontier for generations. Thats a great victory, shame the tourmaches thrown everything away.

Its not like the roman had any actual defeat since the time of troubles (sort of, they technically won but lost influence in Egypt, Sicily and lost the rest of Italy).

If anything recently there's a lot of wars the Romans should have actually lost but didn't. The whole iskandar debacle and the spanish-roman eastern war come to mind. Both were filled with brilliant victories by the other side but ended with a roman victory.
it was a mistake for them to target Mesopotamia first, I agree. They should've focused on the west, but as always it's internal dissention that will cripple the Romans, not a foreign foe.

History repeats itself again... and again... and again. On the cusp of glory... civil war between the factions destroys it. The Empire needs a strong autocrat to take the reins.
 
it was a mistake for them to target Mesopotamia first, I agree. They should've focused on the west, but as always it's internal dissention that will cripple the Romans, not a foreign foe.

History repeats itself again... and again... and again. On the cusp of glory... civil war between the factions destroys it. The Empire needs a strong autocrat to take the reins.
Given that the Tourmachs have screwed up so badly against the easiest target, why do you think it would have been better to attack to the West? AFIAK this is an attempt at a realistic example of a Roman survival. Rhomanis will make it into the modern era and will be one of the great powers, just not a superpower. Think OTL France or the UK, not the US.

An interesting question is who are the superpowers circa 2020 ITTL. My guess is Russia and probably something controlling most of OTL North America, although I doubt very much it will be something like the US, except perhaps in territory. Even then I think it would be more likely to be a combination of the territories of OTL Canada, the US, and Mexico.
 
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