An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania

Not entirely, the Bosphorus is open to the Russian merchant traffic. The Black Sea theater is entirely safe for the Russians.
I know that Nations don't have friends, only interests, but still a strong Russian-Roman alliance could allow modern Russia to concentrate their naval power fully in the Baltic and be confident that their shipping in the Med would be protected by the strong Roman navy.

While on the topic of modern day relations OIL!! The Orthodox alliance (Russia, Rhomania, Vlachia, Georgia) will control a huge portion of the worlds oil supply
 
Not entirely, the Bosphorus is open to the Russian merchant traffic. The Black Sea theater is entirely safe for the Russians.
That's dependent on the goodwill of Rhomania, which is what would make them such an indispensable ally.

I know that Nations don't have friends, only interests, but still a strong Russian-Roman alliance could allow modern Russia to concentrate their naval power fully in the Baltic and be confident that their shipping in the Med would be protected by the strong Roman navy.
Realist IR is a good model for adversarial relations like the US and the Soviet Union/Russia. It becomes increasingly handwavy when you look at, for example, the Anglosphere and the EU. On the material side of things Russia lacks significant warm water ports within its territory, Rhomania has a lack of natural resources and a geographic position that demands it be both a major land power and have a world class navy, which is basically unaffordable these days for anyone who isn't in the same league as the US or China. Both sides' shortcomings are addressed by a Greco-Russian alliance. That would've also been the case for a Russo-Turkish alliance, but neither side was willing to trust each other, and shared historical narratives do play a part in trust.
 
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Rhomania's geography makes them literally indispensable to address that shortcoming, and won't look weak enough for the prospect of Russia seizing the straits themselves to be on the table (and if you're a constructionist the shared religious heritage and lack of a history of hostile relations probably helps). With control over the straits and the Suez Canal, a Moscow-Constantinople axis has the potential be a modern day superpower (Better yet, make it Moscow-Constantinople-Kyoto and that's looking like a US level hegemon). Rhomania is decidedly #2 in that bloc (maybe #3), but it's way more indispensable to the hegemon than the UK was to the US in post WW2 foreign policy.
I would largely agree with you in terms of the raw numbers (i.e. GDP, military numbers, etc) but if you were to look at strategic power rather than simple hard power numbers, if Rhomania (Rhomanion?) is #2, it's a *very* equal #2 when negotiating. If the borders don't particularly shift for the Romans then they're incredibly well placed defensively, the opposite of Russia in any timeline, have a stranglehold on a southern Russian fleet as you've illustrated, but also it's going to be single-handedly able to crush Russian trade with a phone call since it'll be in charge of any Suez-Canal analogue where it is, and I can't see the Russians preferring the Baltic route to the Black route for trade with Asia, because that's a lot of extra miles. Clearly it'd also be a disaster for the Romans because of how economically tied the two will be, but the Romans can more easily trade with the rest of the world (even if they might be less willing to).

When it comes to strategy, they're very natural partners, as whatever conflicts they have are less important than their common interests. I can't see a Roman Empire deciding to go north of the Carpathians or Alps, and so they're perfect for the Mediterranean, and being a relatively more naval power - effectively covering the holes in a Russian-led military alliance, whilst reducing the hostile borders immensely. I'd expect an alliance would operate more like the UN Security Council, with both having a veto, rather than strictly US run. Not unless the Roman-Russian relationship is very lopsided when it forms.
 
I see a lot of OTL Russians here, with the West characterizing them as The Other, a part of Europe but also Asian, standard bearers of a different type of Christianity, and the Romans/Russians walking around with their scars and bearing the slings and arrows of numerous wars and invasions.

Excellent series - assuming it is done, this felt like a coda.

Wanted to write the same thing.

Rhomania as TTL’s Russia, in terms of how it is viewed and treated by the West, has very often been an exemplar in my mind.

And this was a coda.

When you put it this way, Roman society must have gone through generations of whiplash. I guess right now they're going through a (superficial) high with Odysseus's campaigns still in fresh memory - I'm guessing once Athena is out of the way and Herakleios III is ruling in his own right we'll see the military faction get out of control and knock the Roman's down a peg.

Roman history is definitely topsy-turvy. Which even if things settle down with the decline of existential menaces, does have an effect. A society with such a history, and with a strong knowledge of said history, is one that just can’t feel as safe and secure, even in good times, as for example a US or UK where the idea of being invaded and conquered seems inconceivable.

As far as the long term prospects of the Empire go, when we reach modernity, I can very much see a niche for them within what I presume to be a Russian lead international order. Without the backwards policies like serfdom and autocratic political traditions holding back education and industrialization, TTL Russia is poised to live up to the hype of MacKinder's Heartland Theory, but they'll have to overcome the classic Russian obstacle of a lack of warm water ports and access to open waters.

Rhomania's geography makes them literally indispensable to address that shortcoming, and won't look weak enough for the prospect of Russia seizing the straits themselves to be on the table (and if you're a constructionist the shared religious heritage and lack of a history of hostile relations probably helps). With control over the straits and the Suez Canal, a Moscow-Constantinople axis has the potential be a modern day superpower (Better yet, make it Moscow-Constantinople-Kyoto and that's looking like a US level hegemon). Rhomania is decidedly #2 in that bloc (maybe #3), but it's way more indispensable to the hegemon than the UK was to the US in post WW2 foreign policy.

This, with the essential caveat that the devil is in the details. A Russia that is able to punch at its weight class is a serious beast. A Roman-Russian alliance would be extremely powerful and beneficial to both parties, but Russia would be the clearly more powerful party, at least once industrialization and access to all those raw materials becomes a vital factor. The disparity between Russia and Rhomania won’t be as big as the US-UK one, but it will be there.

I would largely agree with you in terms of the raw numbers (i.e. GDP, military numbers, etc) but if you were to look at strategic power rather than simple hard power numbers, if Rhomania (Rhomanion?) is #2, it's a *very* equal #2 when negotiating. If the borders don't particularly shift for the Romans then they're incredibly well placed defensively, the opposite of Russia in any timeline, have a stranglehold on a southern Russian fleet as you've illustrated, but also it's going to be single-handedly able to crush Russian trade with a phone call since it'll be in charge of any Suez-Canal analogue where it is, and I can't see the Russians preferring the Baltic route to the Black route for trade with Asia, because that's a lot of extra miles. Clearly it'd also be a disaster for the Romans because of how economically tied the two will be, but the Romans can more easily trade with the rest of the world (even if they might be less willing to).

When it comes to strategy, they're very natural partners, as whatever conflicts they have are less important than their common interests. I can't see a Roman Empire deciding to go north of the Carpathians or Alps, and so they're perfect for the Mediterranean, and being a relatively more naval power - effectively covering the holes in a Russian-led military alliance, whilst reducing the hostile borders immensely. I'd expect an alliance would operate more like the UN Security Council, with both having a veto, rather than strictly US run. Not unless the Roman-Russian relationship is very lopsided when it forms.

The problem is that ‘trade cut’ is the sort of threat you can only make if you’re already on bad terms, and not interested in improving them. At which point Rhomania becomes, in Russian eyes, like the Ottomans or Sweden of OTL, ‘something that is in the way’. Such a situation likely ends badly for both Russians and Romans, but worse for Romans. Romans won’t be a pushover for Russia, but the Romans won’t be able to push the Russians much either.


The latest section of Not the End: The Empire Under the Laskarids, Chapter 8 part 5-The Re-Conquest of Anatolia has been posted on Patreon for Megas Kyr patrons. Fighting the Karamanids in the mountains of Isauria is going nowhere fast, but political strife in Cilician Armenia and the Kingdom of Cyprus provide new opportunities for the Roman advance.

Thanks again for your support.
 
I wouldn't see Russia even in a theoretical scenario break deep into rhomania either. Only massive amounts of Russian casualties would be able to bring rhomania down simply due to geography. I'd see the vlachs and Georgians choosing to not even pick a side and choose neutrality.

An Roman-russian war would open Pandora's box of outside intervention though.
 
The Russians would need the cooperation of Georgians and Vlachs to make any headway into Rhomania, which will be a hard sell for either Kingdoms.
 
hi, what is the latest map?
I was looking to see how the world is doing, but I can't find the latest

regarding the future of Rome-Russian diplomacy. Crimea will be a point of contention, in conjunction with Russia's future establishment as the strongest Orthodox power. It's not something the Romans will be happy about. Being number two in the relationship

what are the surviving Islamic powers? there's the otto-persians, and morocco and that's it I think. there is also that part of the Spanish mega colony. Or am I forgetting some other power?
 
hi, what is the latest map?
I was looking to see how the world is doing, but I can't find the latest

regarding the future of Rome-Russian diplomacy. Crimea will be a point of contention, in conjunction with Russia's future establishment as the strongest Orthodox power. It's not something the Romans will be happy about. Being number two in the relationship

what are the surviving Islamic powers? there's the otto-persians, and morocco and that's it I think. there is also that part of the Spanish mega colony. Or am I forgetting some other power?
Is Aceh still around? I know the Romans beat them in a big naval battle back in the 1630s but I'm not sure what happened to them after that.
 
hi, what is the latest map?
I was looking to see how the world is doing, but I can't find the latest

regarding the future of Rome-Russian diplomacy. Crimea will be a point of contention, in conjunction with Russia's future establishment as the strongest Orthodox power. It's not something the Romans will be happy about. Being number two in the relationship

what are the surviving Islamic powers? there's the otto-persians, and morocco and that's it I think. there is also that part of the Spanish mega colony. Or am I forgetting some other power?

There’s Oman, I believe, quite cosy with the Romans.
 
I found the map (updated thanks to hmtn)
1653492208836.png


New world
Vinland ( scandinavian canada colony where today is canada, probably with a larger population than Canada at that time. )
USA ( the usa but french+english +irish, the triune colony has no competitors at the moment for north america outside vinland. unless someone colonizes new orleans, or the west coast, like japan or china. Probably will fight with the Greco-Indian Empire. is in good position)
The greco-indigenous empire ( has a lot of gold and silver, it can expand to where chile is, the rest of the great colombia region and part of north america. It therefore has greater flexibility to expand. but it has two heavyweight neighbors with usa and brazil )
Brazil (the spanish colony ranges from the argentine pampas to the edge of otl venezuela. Controls the two entrances to the network of the most important rivers for South America, the Amazon rivers and the entrance of the La Plata and Paraná Rivers. it can expand upwards in the region of venezuela and downwards in Tierra del Fuego. It will likely expand into South America with extreme ease due to lack of competitors.)

Old word
in the europe part it seems to be dated but basically we have the two heavyweights the triune and the roman empire, followed by spain , octania (or is it arles i don't remember), russia (the russia arsenal of democracy is going wonderful and will be a real monster in the future), the hre (it can be a heavyweight but at the moment it's not), the Ottomans (which in my opinion should focus on India), the Ethiopian empire is doing well but it may clash with the spanish colony in Mozambique, the northern empire is doing ok. In asia India ( is is being unified by Hindus). China (has a former "colony" in australia), korea and japan (orthodox) are doing well too.
 
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I found the map
View attachment 744203

New world
Vinland ( scandinavian canada colony where today is canada, probably with a larger population than Canada at that time. )
USA ( the usa but french+english +irish, the triune colony has no competitors at the moment for north america outside vinland. unless someone colonizes new orleans, or the west coast, like japan or china. Probably will fight with the Greco-Indian Empire. is in good position)
The greco-indigenous empire ( has a lot of gold and silver, it can expand to where chile is, the rest of the great colombia region and part of north america. It therefore has greater flexibility to expand. but it has two heavyweight neighbors with usa and brazil )
Brazil (the spanish colony ranges from the argentine pampas to the edge of otl venezuela. Controls the two entrances to the network of the most important rivers for South America, the Amazon rivers and the entrance of the La Plata and Paraná Rivers. it can expand upwards in the region of venezuela and downwards in Tierra del Fuego. It will likely expand into South America with extreme ease due to lack of competitors.)

Old word
in the europe part it seems to be dated but basically we have the two heavyweights the triune and the roman empire, followed by spain , octania (or is it arles i don't remember), russia (the russia arsenal of democracy is going wonderful and will be a real monster in the future), the hre (it can be a heavyweight but at the moment it's not), the Ottomans (which in my opinion should focus on India), the Ethiopian empire is doing well but it may clash with the spanish colony in Mozambique, the northern empire is doing ok. In asia India ( is is being unified by Hindus). China (has a former "colony" in australia), korea and japan (orthodox) are doing well too.
Levant borders are wrong here because this map represents the ceasefire lines against the Ottomans. Updated borders should include the whole of Levant as well as Northen Mesopotamia up to Mosul and an independent Kingdom in the south of Mesopotamia.
 
Levant borders are wrong here because this map represents the ceasefire lines against the Ottomans. Updated borders should include the whole of Levant as well as Northen Mesopotamia up to Mosul and an independent Kingdom in the south of Mesopotamia.
yes I didn't find one with the recent borders of europe/middle east
 
I wouldn't see Russia even in a theoretical scenario break deep into rhomania either. Only massive amounts of Russian casualties would be able to bring rhomania down simply due to geography. I'd see the vlachs and Georgians choosing to not even pick a side and choose neutrality.

An Roman-russian war would open Pandora's box of outside intervention though.

The Russians would need the cooperation of Georgians and Vlachs to make any headway into Rhomania, which will be a hard sell for either Kingdoms.

In a hypothetical Roman-Russian war, Vlachia gets to illustrate graphically the African proverb ‘when elephants fight, it is the grass that gets trampled’. It would probably play out something roughly like the OTL Russo-Turkish wars (TTL players have effectively leveled up from OTL, but in this case the leveling effectively cancel each other out.) The longer such a conflict goes though, the more superior Russian resources becomes a factor; at the end of the 1877 war Russian forces were at Edirne.

Roman-Russian war(s) are bad for everybody involved, and risk outside interventions (so just like the OTL Russo-Turkish wars), but they would be worse for Rhomania than Russia. Because even at this point in narrative, unified Russia has 30+ million people compared to the Imperial heartland's 17.

hi, what is the latest map?
I was looking to see how the world is doing, but I can't find the latest

regarding the future of Rome-Russian diplomacy. Crimea will be a point of contention, in conjunction with Russia's future establishment as the strongest Orthodox power. It's not something the Romans will be happy about. Being number two in the relationship

what are the surviving Islamic powers? there's the otto-persians, and morocco and that's it I think. there is also that part of the Spanish mega colony. Or am I forgetting some other power?

Looks like map question already got resolved.

The Ottomans and the Marinids are by far the biggest Islamic powers. There are also Oman, the Idwaits (parts of OTL Sudan), Sulu Sultanate, and Aceh, which got heavily damaged by a serious naval defeat recently but is still a player in Sumatra. Plus there’s the rest of the Arabian Peninsula, Egyptian vassals in modern-day coastal Libya, as well as various unnamed-in-narrative-but-they-exist Islamic polities in west Africa, Lake Chad area, Swahili coast, central Asia, and in northern India including the Indus.
 
A Storm of the West: Demetrios the Prince
A Storm of the West: Demetrios the Prince

For all the various rumblings and mutterings, the Roman Empire in the late 1640s and early 50s remained relatively quiet, certainly nothing like the turmoil that wracked central Europe. The weather continued to be more erratic than usual, damaging harvests, but the shortages were small-scale. They inflicted immense harm on those in those local areas, even with efforts to distribute aid to stricken regions, but these were blows Roman state and society could absorb.

As the world turned, a certain boy gradually grew toward manhood. Demetrios Sideros the Younger was the youngest son of Odysseus and Maria, and he turned 14 years old in 1653. In his autobiography, Demetrios described that as “the year in which I became interesting”. Some of his tutors probably would’ve questioned that assertion. Demetrios the Younger was many things.

Normal was not one of them.

The word used to describe him, frequently to the point of abuse by his biographers, is intense. Even as a child, whatever he put his mind to, Demetrios utterly committed himself. He loved to hunt and ride, and on days dedicated to those activities, he threw himself into the fray. He rode furiously across the landscape, shooting birds with his bow and lancing boars with his spear. Weather and terrain did not matter. This was a hunting day, and so a hunting day it would be.

But distinctly unlike his brother, Demetrios was a voracious reader, to a point that even a jaded and bibliophile people like Romans were impressed. If it was a reading day, then he would devour volumes. His interests could vary, from works of natural history to human history to adventures, but whatever his interest, he stalked and pursued it until his quarry was brought to bear, slain, and butchered. He listened to tales from foreign ambassadors to learn of distant lands, and he is said to have read all the published works of his grandfather by his thirteenth birthday.

Although tending towards chubbiness as a child, due to an excellent talent for wheedling sweets from the palace kitchen staff, as a teenager he had a lithe slim figure. (One reason for his vigorous exercise routines on allotted days was so that he could continue to enjoy said sweets without the chubbiness.) Not as short as his father, he was still below average in his height, and while no powerlifter was much stronger than one would expect from his small frame. In his capability of producing facial and body hair, he closely resembled his grandfather and far outmatched his elder brother, much to Herakleios’ humiliation. In his dusky skin and dark brown hair he too more closely resembled his father, in contrast to his fairer skinned and haired brother, another source of irritation.

Yet what contemporaries universally noted about him, whether that be a court tutor, a palace bureaucrat, a foreign ambassador, or a young palace maid, were the eyes, those intense eyes. One of those maids described them as “deep pools, simultaneously exciting and frightening”. From a young age, Demetrios enjoyed and pursued the attention of the ladies, usually with success. One day in summer 1653, a horse that had the daughter of the Eparch of Constantinople, Helena, riding it bolted in terror. Demetrios on his own mount caught up with the horse and managed to bring it under control. When Helena asked how she could thank him, he requested that she, who was one of the beauties of the court and five years his senior, give him a kiss which she did.

That episode is known from other accounts. That evening in his journal Demetrios instead records his loathing for people who interrupt him while reading to engage in ‘trivial chattering’.

While a frequent writer like his grandfather (much of Demetrios’ life is known from his surprisingly candid autobiography, although the writing style shows significant grandfatherly influence), unlike Demetrios III, Demetrios the Younger engaged in poetry. One is as follows:

The night before last, I dreamed I was a star,
Shining over the snows on Mount Olympus
And then I awoke, and remembered I was Demetrios.

Last night, I dreamed I was a flower,
Turning toward the sun on the Thessalian plain
And then I awoke, and remembered I was Demetrios.

But is that so?

Am I Demetrios, dreaming I was a star and then a flower?
Am I a star, dreaming I was Demetrios and then a flower?
Or am I a flower, dreaming I was a star and then Demetrios?
Or something else entirely, dreaming of a Demetrios, a star, and a flower?

Probably the last, and likely it’s an elephant that’s the dreamer of it all.

Demetrios’ relations with the rest of his family seem to have been rather distant. He was closest to his cousin Sophia, but he mostly bonded with palace attendants and servants and those responsible for his care while growing up. His writings indicate he respected his Aunt Athena, but there is little sign of affection in either direction.

There is certainly no sign of respect or affection in either direction when one turns to the relationship between Demetrios and his elder brother Herakleios. With a seven-year gap, it is unsurprising they were not close growing up. Herakleios viewed his little brother mostly with annoyance at first, but as Demetrios grew older, and particularly after entering his teenage years, that annoyance grew to dislike and then to hatred.

Herakleios resented how his younger brother seemed to be more popular and admired, especially as there seemed to be a double standard. Demetrios could crow about his hunting exploits and be applauded. Now if Herakleios did the same, he would still be applauded, but that seemed not to be genuine, done simply because of Herakleios’ rank.

(Michael Pirikolos said that the difference was because of the nature of the crowing. Demetrios would grant honors and praise to others in the hunting party, and showed a willingness to poke fun at himself. But when Herakleios went hunting, all kills belonged to him and him alone, and no dirt could land on him. Another difference was that Demetrios could talk about other topics than hunting, while Michael caustically stated that Herakleios had the mental horizon of a not-especially-bright English aristocrat.)

The annoyance and resentment did not manifest itself into hatred though until an incident in spring of 1654. Demetrios and some of his attendants were promenading in the White Palace gardens when they came upon Anastasia Laskarina, Herakleios’ mistress, and several of her attendants going the other way. In this area, the footpath was narrow and there was not enough room for both parties. One would have to step off the path to make way for the other.

Anastasia requested that Demetrios make way for her. He replied that he would make way for an elephant, but not ‘any old cow’. Anastasia was understandably furious and refused to budge when Demetrios then demanded that she make way for him. Impasse.

Neither was willing to either move or turn around, but it turns out that Demetrios was better prepared. After a few minutes, he and his attendants pulled out some cold sausages, cheese, and a jug of wine they had on them (why has never been explained) and while still standing on the path, calmly and loudly proceeded to slowly eat their repast. Finally, Anastasia gave way and moved off the path, letting Demetrios proceed.

Herakleios was absolutely enraged when he heard of this; there are some accounts that state he wished to have his brother beheaded for the impertinence. Athena, who had no liking for Anastasia, found the whole affair amusing but did not want any brotherly stabbing to splatter the walls of the White Palace. Thus, to placate Herakleios, who at this stage was more than old enough to take the reins of power but showed no signs of seriously trying to take them from his aunt, a compromise was reached.

It was effectively exile. Demetrios was granted some large tracts of land, with it being made very clear he was to leave the White Palace and go live on those holdings. The estate was in the Kephalate of Iberia in northeast Anatolia, inland from Trebizond. With its capital of Theodosiopolis, the southern part of the district included the field of Manzikert. Demetrios’ property was near Chauzizion on the Upper Araxes River, a town that far more resembled Tbilisi or Tabriz than it did Constantinople or Nicaea.

This was in the heart of the rugged rough east, where knowledge of Armenian and Georgian and Kurdish was more useful on the ground and where the spoken Greek was decidedly strange by capital standards. In terms of travel time (although not in straight-line distance), it was almost as far as one could go from Constantinople while still remaining in the Imperial heartland.

Demetrios seems to have accepted this with good grace. The teenager was restless, a pointless second son with nothing to do. Given his older brother’s feelings, prospects of advancement in Roman service seemed rather slim, and he was too proud to beg forgiveness. He made his own feelings for his elder brother quite clear as he made his way east out of the White Palace in late spring 1654.

Definitely without permission, in his baggage Demetrios Sideros took the Sword of Timur, the blade their grandfather had acquired in Persia, and the blade their father had worn through his long march east. As far as Demetrios was concerned, that steel belonged to him.
 
I'm honestly shocked that he wasn't sent further afield. Did Athena reign that effective exile in so that there is a backup in case Heraklios dies? It doesn't seem to be the forethought he'd apply in this situation.

I wonder if this might be a chance for him to pick up some much needed skills for a similar, later, exile to RITE?
 
"A Storm of the West?" Wonder if he follows his cousin Jahzara to Mexico. She should be heading over there fairly soon as she's going to be the next Empress of Mexico.
 
The one time I'm hoping someone will kill the current Roman Emperor and put his brother on the throne and knowing B444 it probably won't happen.
 
My guess (and hope) is a civil war between Herakleois (supported by the Hawks) and Demetrios (supported by the defensists) that Demetrios wins.

Also still loving this timeline keep it up. I remember reading the first parts years ago which were in Year X Y happened and not reading further until I ran out of Byzantine timelines and then being blown away by how well your timeline and writing is.
 
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