I stand corrected. Seems like the Turkish presence will if anything be stronger without the competing Arab influence.
An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania
- Thread starter Basileus444
- Start date
I'd love to hear the Bman critique my india map because honestly I just winged it especially for the nations between Oudh and Vijay
Does anyone remember what's the population of Persia TTL? IIRC, Persia was OTL pretty scarcely populated and even experienced a fall of population after the fall of Safavids (perhaps even before that). Afsarid and Qajar Persia was far from TTL's Great Power.
I'm asking to assess whether they have a chance to butt heads with Indian kingdoms without a once-in-a-millenia commander like Iskander.
I'm asking to assess whether they have a chance to butt heads with Indian kingdoms without a once-in-a-millenia commander like Iskander.
Evilprodigy
Donor
The OTL numbers don't particularly matter. The Safavids lost Mesopotamia in the 1550s and never got it back for long. In here, the Ottomans have retained control of Mesopotamia well into the 17th century. This state simply has had, and will have, more resources available to it than Persian States in this time period from our timeline.
They do matter, because they give us some clues about TTL Persian population density. Having Mesopotamia in same state does not change the fertility of Iranian plateau. Food imports from Mesopotamia can help (if it is a net exporter), but not to a dramatic effect.
TTL persian population should be higher, but I wonder how much.
I know Basileus has put in a lot of research on the effects of the Little Ice Age, so I'll defer to his authority, but I have to imagine the population on the Persian plateau is about to take a hit just like Anatolia.
Evilprodigy
Donor
You weren't asking about Persian population density or the population of Iran. You asked about about the ability of/resources in a Persian state and thence its capacity to fight in India and commented how OTL states were not great powers like TTL one is. States I'm pointing out did not have Mesopotamia, like this one does. I responded to what you asked. If you want population density of the Iranian Plateau that won't answer your questions on the ability of a state which includes much more population and resources than the Iranian Plateau.
Regardless, here's what I found:
"No reliable estimates are available for the population of Safavid Iran. ... an estimate for 1650 of eight to ten million seems reasonable."
Safavid, Mughal, and Ottoman Empires (Chapter 1) - Time in Early Modern Islam
Time in Early Modern Islam - February 2013
www.cambridge.org
Speaking of Iran: Since Iran is Sunni ITTL what parts of the Muslim world are Shia?
Iran is majority Sunni i believe since they were nevet taken over by the Qajars.
Also i dont mean to be one of those fans who ships everyone but is there something more intimate going on between Ody and Iskander? Neither really have a romantic partner that they are actively intimate or in love with and they have been spending all of their time together. I know their relationship is most likely that of brothers but i have to ask
I seriously doubt their relationship is anything more than platonic. Just another set of brothers like Odysseus and Andreas III, but this time he's the Andreas to Iskander's Odysseus.
I do feel bad about Ody's love life though. He loves Maria of Agra yet is incredibly guilty of that love due to her previous relationship with his brother, who she still loves over Odysseus. Makes sense that he would accept Maria's rejection of him (he can never replace Andreas III), but now he's got nothing but his goals and his rage. A sad life in a way.
Pretty sure any OTL territories in southern Mesopotamia and the western Gulf coast are populated by Shia. Maybe some in OTL Azerbaijan.
I could totally be wrong though.
Cryostorm
Donor
Southern Mesopotamia is probably majority Sunni thanks to the Turks, though with a large Shia Arab minority.
I agree (perhaps I answered the question incorrectly), although that probably means there's very few or no states that currently practice Shia Islam as an official religion.
Cryostorm
Donor
Probably not, unless there's a semi-independent tribe in the coastal interior of Arabia like Najd or the Sauds. Or a sheikdom like Bahrain or Qatar.
Evilprodigy
Donor
Azerbaijan (as well as Iran, southern Afghanistan, and much of Southern Iraq) did not become Shia until the Safavids forcibly converted those places to their particular brand of Shia Islam, Twelver. Isma'ilism and Zaidiyyah had proponents scattered about (Lebanon, Yemen, Northern Afghanistan and Tajikistan, Pakistan, Central India) but nothing that gained political power after the 16th century. Which you can blame on the rise of vast Islamic Empires in that period.
Prior to the consolidation of Islamic power in the Middle East and India, Northwestern Iran/Azerbaijan and Eastern Turkey had Shia followers, almost all were Sufis. Medieval Turkish communities loved Sufism since it kept parts of their pre-Islamic mystic religious culture from Central Asia and was open to other forms of syncretism. These regions did not become majority Shia until the Safavids. They utilized Twelver Shia as a political ideology to promote unity amongst the disparate groups of their empire. Without that development, not only is Iran, Iraq, Azerbaijan, and Southern Afghanistan Sunni but remaining Shia communities (primarily in Lebanon) would not be Twelver and thence the entire character of Shia Islam is quite different since Twelvers have never had their time in the sun to influence the wider Shia, and Islamic, world. Places the Safavids touched who were already Shia were mostly not Twelvers either, so any Shia outside of Eastern Turkey and Northwestern Iran are not the same sort of Shia as, say, Lebanon, Northern Afghanistan, or the Persian Gulf.
Cryostorm
Donor
Oh, no argument there. Any Indian adventures for Iskander will need to wait until his realm is solidly behind him and recovered from the last two wars, not to mention whatever consolidation of the periphery he does. Wrecking northern India to take out a pretender is one thing, even Vijayanagara can accept that, but sticking around would be a big no-no. Now if said wrecking makes it easier for them to come back later...
Impossible for Iskander to make a comeback in India for a forseeable future. The Indian states there are strong enough to hold back an already weakened war-weary, civil war Persian empire. At a minimum of 15 - 25 years is needed for even Persia proper to recover their lost manpower, by that time the Indian northern states should have stabilized and ready for whatever Iskander's ambitions are.
On Oudh:
1. "Oudh" is an anglicization. The actual name of the place is Awadh.
2. This is Awadh proper:
The capital of Awadh OTL and TTL is Lucknow, which is one of the most populous cities on earth TTL.
3. TTL Awadhi kingdom seems to extend from Patna in the east to Firozabad (the Sikhs nicked Agra) in the west, which is... a very goodly portion of India. It might probably be able to just about equal Vijayanagar on sheer population alone.
4. Delhi is the capital of dat Sikh state, so @Frame your map definitely extends Awadh too far west.
1. "Oudh" is an anglicization. The actual name of the place is Awadh.
2. This is Awadh proper:
The capital of Awadh OTL and TTL is Lucknow, which is one of the most populous cities on earth TTL.
3. TTL Awadhi kingdom seems to extend from Patna in the east to Firozabad (the Sikhs nicked Agra) in the west, which is... a very goodly portion of India. It might probably be able to just about equal Vijayanagar on sheer population alone.
4. Delhi is the capital of dat Sikh state, so @Frame your map definitely extends Awadh too far west.
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