I could actually see this thing surviving by allying with Ottokar. Maybe he agrees to leave them alone in exchange for helping him kick out the Triunes.
An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania
- Thread starter Basileus444
- Start date
So we have eastern war tactics mixed with Napoleonic tactics, and all centred in Magdeburg in NE Germany by a movement that its opponents link to the Romans, and has smashed the Triunes. My my my.
I'm looking forward to their future, especially if they're forced into a sort of devils alliance. I just went back to "Lessons Learned in the End" and I noticed that whilst yes there are anti-Greek marching songs when fighting the Triunes, there was also this tidbit.
Now ignoring the talk of conquest - we're not at all talking about the intelligentsia, and whilst Ulm was German, it was a German city, and the Ravens are largely rural.
I'm curious if this might be a really interesting point for Roman diplomatic strategy - they've alienated the nobles, and their reputation in general isn't great, even amongst the Ravens - but - the Ravens could make a devils alliance with the Romans if the worst came to the worst. Plus, sending basic supplies and recognition in future years to Magdeburg could be played well. To keep with B444s metaphor of stories, Ulm was the end of the last book, one of invasion, counter-invasion, and brutality - a relationship with Magdeburg could be a very powerful sequel, one that recontextualises the past as German Lords vs Romans (especially with the devastation of Macedonia) and the future as the German People vs German Lords, with the Romans as the potential allies.
Am I saying anything soon? God no, outside of some small shipments making their way as a reward for smashing the Triunes anything more would be a provocation, but if that helps the Ravens survive to the late 1600s, when B444 hasn't really described the German-Roman situation, then a surviving Raven State might not have an ally, but perhaps a guarantor in the Romans. Or at least that's what I'd be advising.
What I wouldn't be mentioning is the risk of those ideas coming back to Vlachia, or that a super-successful Raven State might up being more dangerous than the Triunes or HRE.
I'm looking forward to their future, especially if they're forced into a sort of devils alliance. I just went back to "Lessons Learned in the End" and I noticed that whilst yes there are anti-Greek marching songs when fighting the Triunes, there was also this tidbit.
Now ignoring the talk of conquest - we're not at all talking about the intelligentsia, and whilst Ulm was German, it was a German city, and the Ravens are largely rural.
I'm curious if this might be a really interesting point for Roman diplomatic strategy - they've alienated the nobles, and their reputation in general isn't great, even amongst the Ravens - but - the Ravens could make a devils alliance with the Romans if the worst came to the worst. Plus, sending basic supplies and recognition in future years to Magdeburg could be played well. To keep with B444s metaphor of stories, Ulm was the end of the last book, one of invasion, counter-invasion, and brutality - a relationship with Magdeburg could be a very powerful sequel, one that recontextualises the past as German Lords vs Romans (especially with the devastation of Macedonia) and the future as the German People vs German Lords, with the Romans as the potential allies.
Am I saying anything soon? God no, outside of some small shipments making their way as a reward for smashing the Triunes anything more would be a provocation, but if that helps the Ravens survive to the late 1600s, when B444 hasn't really described the German-Roman situation, then a surviving Raven State might not have an ally, but perhaps a guarantor in the Romans. Or at least that's what I'd be advising.
What I wouldn't be mentioning is the risk of those ideas coming back to Vlachia, or that a super-successful Raven State might up being more dangerous than the Triunes or HRE.
Donald Reaver
Donor
Interesting choice of city Magdeburg, not related to any fiction we know, lol. Seems like no matter what they will not last very long. A far greater threat to the surrounding states by existing than other rivalries, though it might take time for them to realize that.
I wonder if Magdeburg was chosen because of the massacre there in the OTL 30 years war?
Your ability to clearly and concisely write battles is top-notch. I could picture exactly what was going on - a testament to your skill with the pen, errr keyboard.
I wonder if many generals/leaders will adopt these Raven tactics. They may just blame the loss on Pembroke instead and learn nothing. Not like that's unprecedented in history either.
I wonder if many generals/leaders will adopt these Raven tactics. They may just blame the loss on Pembroke instead and learn nothing. Not like that's unprecedented in history either.
Something to learn from a jumped up commoner leading a rabble of peasants?! Surely you jest, tis obvious that Pembroke was just a unfit commander leading ill prepared and ill disciplined lowborn soldiers.
*Please ignore that the cream of Latin nobility also just recently got their asses handed to them by a nation that doesn't even have true nobility in the sense that Latin Europe understands it.
I could see Ottokar having to make a deal with the Ravens. Bohemia alone cannot match or even blunt Triune ambitions, but the Ravens backed by Bohemian armies filling the gaping holes in the Raven's capabilities could be in the strategic sense very powerful, presuming you can get them all to work together.
The Ravens are on the forefront of infantry tactics in the European world, and with Bohemians providing cavalry, artillery, siege expertise, lines of supply and perhaps even some professional infantry backbone you have the makings of a very capable army in Germany to counter the Triune advances.
I don't know that they would be able to necessarily challenge them regularly, but picking their battles carefully and winning them might just get them a more equal peace agreement. After all, its not as if the other German princes are doing anything worthwhile to help, so alienating them wouldn't be harmless but neither would it be much worse than the situation already is.
Meanwhile the Ravens get guarantee of their gains in Magdeburg, survival and perhaps even a bit of implicit legitimization of their ideals, and likely some reforms throughout Germany due to their role in saving it.
It is definitely desperate on both their parts, but the times are beyond desperation for both of them.
The Ravens are on the forefront of infantry tactics in the European world, and with Bohemians providing cavalry, artillery, siege expertise, lines of supply and perhaps even some professional infantry backbone you have the makings of a very capable army in Germany to counter the Triune advances.
I don't know that they would be able to necessarily challenge them regularly, but picking their battles carefully and winning them might just get them a more equal peace agreement. After all, its not as if the other German princes are doing anything worthwhile to help, so alienating them wouldn't be harmless but neither would it be much worse than the situation already is.
Meanwhile the Ravens get guarantee of their gains in Magdeburg, survival and perhaps even a bit of implicit legitimization of their ideals, and likely some reforms throughout Germany due to their role in saving it.
It is definitely desperate on both their parts, but the times are beyond desperation for both of them.
InB4 the formation of the Grand Republican Corvine-East Frisia-Dithmarschen Peasant Empire. All hail our new peasant overlords!
I wonder how religion is going to develop in the Raven State considering they just drove out the largest honcho of the Catholic church in Northern Germany. I imagine Avignon is none too eager on endorsing them too.
I wonder how religion is going to develop in the Raven State considering they just drove out the largest honcho of the Catholic church in Northern Germany. I imagine Avignon is none too eager on endorsing them too.
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As if the HRE couldn’t be more confusing and weird, now we have a peasant communist state in the area. Absolute bonkers
pls don't ban me
Monthly Donor
At this point i'm expecting also a cameo by the ASB as one of the free cities
jokes aside dirschmachten( surely spelled wrong) was a historical peasant commune in the HRE that in this case got even bigger
To be honest, I actually adore the Ravens for a lot of reasons, but they do remind me of those anime underdogs that get stacked up against a much bigger opponent yet always beat them every time through clever tactics and sheer luck, which is always endearing to read or watch. While I don't expect their ideal society to be realized or even survive amidst a hellish world like they live in, I think their ideals will echo through the German psyche as intellectuals or even ordinary people hear of the Three Ravens. Socialism/Communism might arise earlier as a result, albeit within the framework of agrarian socialism like the Diggers OTL or the Ravens ITTL.
As for Ottokar, I do think that he will be forced to ally with the Ravens out of pragmatism, since they are entrenched in Magdeburg and he can't just dislodge them without costing much needed troops against Henri II. In fact, they're a useful ally in this case, especially after Friedrich's smashing victory against the Triunes. Elisabeth, Ottokar, and Friedrich will prove to be the key towards saving Germany, but we all know where the story is going to end once the Ravens' usefulness has run out. It's not a friendly alliance to say the least and I definitely believe that Elisabeth and Ottokar will ruthlessly betray the Ravens once their backs are turned.
The Romans would be intrigued, but I don't think they're going to intervene in Germany for quite a while, especially after their recent focus towards the East. There's no point in Demetrius or Odysseus to even bother allying when Germany remaining in this chaotic situation is perfectly favorable to them. Not like the Ravens even want or need their help, considering how every peasant has probably suffered under the Romans' wanton raping and pillaging of German lands.
As for Ottokar, I do think that he will be forced to ally with the Ravens out of pragmatism, since they are entrenched in Magdeburg and he can't just dislodge them without costing much needed troops against Henri II. In fact, they're a useful ally in this case, especially after Friedrich's smashing victory against the Triunes. Elisabeth, Ottokar, and Friedrich will prove to be the key towards saving Germany, but we all know where the story is going to end once the Ravens' usefulness has run out. It's not a friendly alliance to say the least and I definitely believe that Elisabeth and Ottokar will ruthlessly betray the Ravens once their backs are turned.
The Romans would be intrigued, but I don't think they're going to intervene in Germany for quite a while, especially after their recent focus towards the East. There's no point in Demetrius or Odysseus to even bother allying when Germany remaining in this chaotic situation is perfectly favorable to them. Not like the Ravens even want or need their help, considering how every peasant has probably suffered under the Romans' wanton raping and pillaging of German lands.
The only thing I'd say about this (other than what I've said earlier) is that the Romans can see the Ravens as useful if the Ravens develop an essentially isolationist diplomatic policy. The Ravens on the other hand can potentially have the Romans as their ace-in-the-hole against Ottokar if he does move against them.
Vince
Monthly Donor
Bonebreaker's son rules Brandenberg now and that's very close to it. Magdeburg hasn't become part of that duchy yet as it did in OTL, right?
Perhaps, but I don't think the Ravens can fully rely on the Romans to save them in that kind of situation, since it's probably common knowledge that the Romans are starting to withdraw from Latin affairs after what happened in Italy. Going back on that word so soon is only going to make the Romans even more untrustworthy than they already are.
Not to mention, the rest of the Latins would immediately notice that the Romans have essentially supported a movement that has already killed some of the wealthy upper class or even the nobility.
Considering the risks out of intervening in support of the Ravens while doing nothing is either a neutral outcome or even a benefit, I don't think Demetrius or Odysseus are going to take those chances.
I have to agree. The Romans will want no part in this. It's far away, it would be expensive to support if they ever needed to intervene, and they had enough of a headache in Italy and remember the backlash to the events in Genoa. They're not looking to to trigger more coalitions by being seen as the anti-nobility state, at least not in the near future. It does seem like they'll want some kind of guarantor if they do side with Ottokar against the Triunes to stave off a, "you've outlived your usefulness" moment.
As for their longevity, despite their best intentions and plans it's unlikely their state will survive in it's current form into the modern day. It does however seem likely that they could have an impact not just on future socialist/communist theory and German patriotism, but on the laws in the HRE itself. I could definitely see some kind of finance and/or land reform being implemented as way to ward off any other peasants getting ideas. Remember they saturated the countryside with pamphlets on their march. It's likely some others who didn't join immediately might get ideas of their own.
As for their longevity, despite their best intentions and plans it's unlikely their state will survive in it's current form into the modern day. It does however seem likely that they could have an impact not just on future socialist/communist theory and German patriotism, but on the laws in the HRE itself. I could definitely see some kind of finance and/or land reform being implemented as way to ward off any other peasants getting ideas. Remember they saturated the countryside with pamphlets on their march. It's likely some others who didn't join immediately might get ideas of their own.
Raven Tactics: It will likely take a while for Raven tactics to really be analyzed and perhaps adopted. Some of that will be because of snobbery, but not all. Zimmermann was confronting a specific tactical problem; he has a lot of enthusiastic but green soldiery that he can’t trust to stand and take fire. A commander with an army of disciplined regulars with an artillery train that knows its stuff simply doesn’t have that issue, so he wouldn’t need to innovate like Zimmermann. Zimmermann is operating what is effectively a levee en masse army, just on a much smaller scale from OTL, so he’s coming up with similar solutions. While other commanders are operating armies of long-term regulars, they won’t, but once they start fielding more mass armies they could change their tune.
Magdeburg: It was chosen because of the OTL massacre during the 30 Years War. At this point ITTL it is (was) an independent archbishopric.
Raven Politics and Alliances: I really wish the Ravens well; my pro-peasant side is enjoying this bit. But their long-term prospects (as in measured in decade-or-more) are nonexistent. They are just too much of an existential threat to the social order for them to be tolerated. Right now the powers-that-be are distracted, disorganized, or conserving their forces, but that won’t last forever.
As for alliances, pragmatism for Ottokar means if he was forced to choose between the Ravens and Henri, he will pick Henri. The Ravens are not just some other state, to be used on political grounds. The Ravens are a threat to the social order, while Henri is not. Henri is a fellow monarch, who will respect the way society is ‘supposed’ to be structured. Meanwhile the Ravens want to kill all of the upper class, take all of their stuff (especially land), and redistribute it to the peons. Henri is far more preferable from Ottokar’s, the Bohemian nobility’s, and the German princes’ POV, if they have to choose between the two.
Dithmarschen is different on two counts. Firstly, it has historical precedent while the Ravens are an innovation. Secondly, the former is content to stay in their marshes with their privileges, while the Ravens are actively mobile and proselytizing.
The Ravens are like the Anabaptists of Munster. They’re so radical that even Catholics and Protestants that were willing and eager to kill each other banded together temporarily to wipe them out. Not even the Romans would be willing to ally with them; their land and social reform programs would be just as unacceptable in Rhomania as in any Latin state. (Even if the Ravens were a normal state, simple geography means the Romans couldn’t help them anyway even if they wanted to. A Roman army outside Prague would be reprising Theodor at Thessaloniki.)
The Ravens will be significant as an example and a message for future ages, even if they themselves do not endure.
Magdeburg: It was chosen because of the OTL massacre during the 30 Years War. At this point ITTL it is (was) an independent archbishopric.
Raven Politics and Alliances: I really wish the Ravens well; my pro-peasant side is enjoying this bit. But their long-term prospects (as in measured in decade-or-more) are nonexistent. They are just too much of an existential threat to the social order for them to be tolerated. Right now the powers-that-be are distracted, disorganized, or conserving their forces, but that won’t last forever.
As for alliances, pragmatism for Ottokar means if he was forced to choose between the Ravens and Henri, he will pick Henri. The Ravens are not just some other state, to be used on political grounds. The Ravens are a threat to the social order, while Henri is not. Henri is a fellow monarch, who will respect the way society is ‘supposed’ to be structured. Meanwhile the Ravens want to kill all of the upper class, take all of their stuff (especially land), and redistribute it to the peons. Henri is far more preferable from Ottokar’s, the Bohemian nobility’s, and the German princes’ POV, if they have to choose between the two.
Dithmarschen is different on two counts. Firstly, it has historical precedent while the Ravens are an innovation. Secondly, the former is content to stay in their marshes with their privileges, while the Ravens are actively mobile and proselytizing.
The Ravens are like the Anabaptists of Munster. They’re so radical that even Catholics and Protestants that were willing and eager to kill each other banded together temporarily to wipe them out. Not even the Romans would be willing to ally with them; their land and social reform programs would be just as unacceptable in Rhomania as in any Latin state. (Even if the Ravens were a normal state, simple geography means the Romans couldn’t help them anyway even if they wanted to. A Roman army outside Prague would be reprising Theodor at Thessaloniki.)
The Ravens will be significant as an example and a message for future ages, even if they themselves do not endure.
I'm not sure that Ottokar would be enthusiastic to bring in Henri though, because he knows he'll have to cough up his pride, his reputation, and the lands of the Rhine to him just to crush the Ravens, who are basically just peasant rebels. That's seriously not a good look for an Emperor who is pretty shaky in terms of his authority, so he'd have to weigh his options before clicking that "SOS" button to the Triunes.
Meanwhile, the Ravens are obviously a grave threat to the current social order, but they remain a much more subdued enemy compared to the massive raving armies of the Triunes and with them taking Magdeburg as a base, that only makes them an easy static target for the Germans in case they do need to get rid of them.
It'd be more interesting if Ottokar manages to crush the Raven's Rebellion on his own terms instead of taking the easy way out with Henri. The Ravens can be a useful tool for him both militarily and politically, being a weapon he can manipulate to crush the Triunes while giving some small concessions to them, only for him to betray them when they do not see Ottokar and Elisabeth's treachery. I can see Ottokar firmly establish himself as the HRE Emperor among the Electors and the rest of the German court through the death of the Ravens if done in this fashion.
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