An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania
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He's the son of Aphrodite. How much more Greek can he get?
I mean, Aphrodite is known to be an import God - she's not even part of the Olympian Family (even if she is part of that Pantheon).
I mean, I'd agree with the first sentence - for sure. It's just interesting that looking at the history of the time, we can tell the Hittites were in conflict with Luwians, who appear to be the culture the Trojans were part of (if Wilusa is Troy). Whilst its perfectly reasonable to accept that the Greeks believe that Aeneas and Hector were effectively Greek, we do have to take note that we're using a Greek oration of the story that is centuries old. It's just funny IMO - there is no reason other than "its the story we know" to presume the Trojans even worshipped the same Gods, and if anything evidence they weren't exists.
Like, I'm not mad or annoyed - it's just weird and a little funny that an Empire founded by a Trojan (and thus potentially in no way Greek) now speaks Greek as its primarily language with an heir who is named after the guy who made their founder homeless.
History, even Alternate History, is funny sometimes.
Qing would not have fallen if not for the explosive combination of both external and internal pressures simultaneously eroding its authority until it collapsed decades later. The world as a whole is on a seemingly more level playing field in general, and I can't see any overwhelming threat capable of undermining the Vijayanagar to the point of destruction on the horizon.
I dont think Vijayanagar will be destroyed but they certainly will be feel the same shenanigans that happened to Rome throughout the 3rd cenntury up to this present ttl year. If they do fall who or what will replace them?
Presumably a North Indian nation Looking to control most of the subcontinent in conjunction with a combo few out side actors (The Triunes, Spanish, Romans, Ethiopians, Omani, and possibly Lotharingians if the survive) looking for some costal cities and possibly a puppet state if they’re ambitious.
I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if India ended up being made up of a dozen different states, mostly native but some that have significant outside influences or loyalties. A Spanish backed state in Bengal, the Romans having a puppet on the coast face Taprobane, the Ethiopians propping up a small state around the city they control. I expect many native Indian kingdoms to flourish in this timeline but I don’t expect them to be alone.
Client state is a bit much, a friendly power that remembers a favour? Sure.
The debacle that was the far East conflict is going to make Rome shift gears considerably with how they handle their holdings. With the crippling of the ship lords, as was mentioned, it opens the door for the government to step up their ship numbers and what ships are out there. A move to a faster fregatai as was shown to be Spain's advantage will be discussed I feel, as well as money going into the hands of more minor powers. Rome became painfully aware of how much they lean on the local powers, and that they can't be stuck on one or two. The easiest way to subvert the advantage Mataram is to pick two more local powers and work out a deal that have them buying Roman weapons too. A clash is coming between Mataram and Rome eventually, resentment fueled the last deal and put Rome in a position of little bargaining power.
This could be a period of consolidation for Rome while Spain really has pretty much shot it's load in that part of the world. This could even make Rome want to set up a series of packet stations along East Africa, or contracted through the Ethiopians to keep better tabs on the European boats coming and going.
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Took the words from my mouth.
Not sure creating a regional arms race is to the Roman advantage. More practically I think would be to bring in a big-stick policy and start raising local forces under a Roman banner so they can act without the need to lean on any specific local power. Now they control southern half of the Malay Peninsula, they can consolidate that and lean on that primarily, with Cham(pa?) and (Semarang?Mataram?I think I'm mixed up too) which means they can have the local forces organised as the Romans want, and can start to act independently of their allies if needs be in smaller conflicts.
I think that's a solid call - I'd vote for it
But it does have me thinking - what baffles me is that with Ethiopia and Oman dominating East African trade, the Romans the biggest Europeans in East Asia, and Vijayanagar, why the Europeans don't just let them play the middle man. They can make more trips to import Indian Ocean goods at less risk to themselves if they stop off at South Africa/East Africa and trade there. They have no easy way to dominate the trade lanes now, which means they can do what the Romans do in RITE with trade, at least not without effectively entering Ethiopian or Omani interests. Maybe thats somewhere to watch?
Cham I believe is a better ally than Mataram and its already proven. Rome really should start intensifying their ship production on a massive scale as well as researching immunities for the tropical climate of se asia. For immunities since its a bit far off, having loads of native and mestizo family for the far east is the solution for manpower crisis there. Can't rely too much on local powers to back you up, gotta start pumping those upcoming loyal babiesTook the words from my mouth.
Not sure creating a regional arms race is to the Roman advantage. More practically I think would be to bring in a big-stick policy and start raising local forces under a Roman banner so they can act without the need to lean on any specific local power. Now they control southern half of the Malay Peninsula, they can consolidate that and lean on that primarily, with Cham(pa?) and (Semarang?Mataram?I think I'm mixed up too) which means they can have the local forces organised as the Romans want, and can start to act independently of their allies if needs be in smaller conflicts.
I think that's a solid call - I'd vote for it
But it does have me thinking - what baffles me is that with Ethiopia and Oman dominating East African trade, the Romans the biggest Europeans in East Asia, and Vijayanagar, why the Europeans don't just let them play the middle man. They can make more trips to import Indian Ocean goods at less risk to themselves if they stop off at South Africa/East Africa and trade there. They have no easy way to dominate the trade lanes now, which means they can do what the Romans do in RITE with trade, at least not without effectively entering Ethiopian or Omani interests. Maybe thats somewhere to watch?
This is really off topic, but I was rereading Age of Miracles and I can't help but wonder when, if ever, the Pope in Avignon decides to call it quits and give up the title of Bishop of Rome. There's been more than one occasion when they've decided to not even press the issue because they're so entrenched that moving would only weaken them, so at some point taking their "new" location as a badge of honor would work in their favor, yeah?
Evilprodigy
Donor
French Kings continued to use the title emperor of Rome, which they purchased from the deposed Byzantine emperor after the conquest of Constantinople, until well into the 18th century. The same is true for English kings styling themselves as king of France.
That's the time period when titles which are purely prestigious give way to titles of nationalist value and modern realities.
It probably is I wasn’t 100% sure on which of the two controlled it currently and was to lazy to Double check since I was going to bed.
Mataram is going to be a beast in the east, and the best way to mitigate that is to have friends in the area that are as close to technological parity as they are as possible, so when the next gen of weapons is developed in the home land, they will not be at a parity to make it costly to bring under your aegis. In saying that, I am always a fan of the unseen warfare, and who knows, there areplenty of vipers in the region that could find their way into the bed of a ruler, and a plyable supplicant steps up. Or even a more traditional leader that sees the new weapons as running contra to their traditions.
We'll see about that, whether Mataram can actually westernize cause its not that easy at all as someone in this ttl said.
So how long do you guys think it'll be for hungary to become at least plurality orthodox maybe about a century or two of Roman influence? I imagine the major trade cities along the danube will be the first to convert due coming into direct contact with Orthodox traders and perhaps missionaries as well. It'll probably really take off once they get an Orthodox monarch on the throne if that ever happens
It's not so much westernize, but be the/one of the dominate player in the region. If they have an edge over the other smaller powers outside of the European umbrellas, they will become a serious thorn in the sides of Rome when they move to solidify rest of Island Asia.
Evilprodigy
Donor
Likely never.
The Hungarians have no reason to adopt a different nation's belief system, especially when they're trying to keep Germans in their state. Unity of religion goes a long way towards accomplishing that goal. Historically that is why the Austrians purged Hungarian protestants after its reconquest from the Ottoman Empire
It originally wasn’t going to be this costly for the Romans. But then once I’d set up the game board and started figuring out how it would play, I went “man, this is a lot harder than I thought it would be.”
Yeah, I think the big issue for the Romans is that they set up some good systems…last century. They were good for their time but times are changing. What Spain did once it could do again (even if not right away) and what Spain can do, the Triunes, Lotharingians, Arletians, and possibly even the Scandinavians can do. The Romans need to up their game.
The Romans were getting berated by an angry Venkata, and the Sikh ambassador interceded and calmed the Emperor down on the Romans’ behalf. So the Romans know the Sikhs are a good and useful friend to have at Vijayanagar. Therefore they should make sure to retain Sikh support by providing the Sikh Confederacy with more material and/or money support (Ranjit Singh took Agra with a Roman-provided artillery train). This benefits the Sikhs and Vijayanagara foreign policy favors a strong Sikh Confederacy to threaten Oudh, which is why Venkata wanted it.
The city itself is the only territory that has directly changed hands, but the rest of Spanish Malaya effectively comes with it. Although the Romans have yet to establish their own control.
Malacca won’t be so noteworthy simply because it is so far away. The big names are Genoa and especially Rome, because it’s Rome.
I expect Spain to turn west and focus on being an Atlantic power after this. Imagine a Spain with an economically integrated Venezuela, Brazil, and Argentina that uses colonial demand for goods as a spur to expanding and advancing its own domestic industries…
Building up the yards at Pyrgos and Pahang is essential. Taprobane has the most facilities because it is the oldest Katepanate, but it is too close to Vijayanagar. Any large fleet buildup cannot help but make Vijayanagar wary, simply because of proximity. Instead build the fleet up in Island Asia. It doesn’t bother the City of Victories because ships way out east aren’t a threat, while Taprobane is protected by its own proximity to Vijayanagar. Any Latin attacking it is probably going to end up stepping on Vijayangar’s toes.
I’d say it counts as a victory, but an insanely expensive one.
Spain got away with most of their ships, including those third-raters, including a lot of Roman prizes.
Centralizing the far east is still, given the transportation and communication tech of the day, easier said than done. There’s a reason the English, French, and Dutch all delegated their colonial efforts to corporations during this period, and even then the corporate directors had serious problems getting their officials on the ground to listen to them. Hard to enforce compliance when it takes 6+ months for your memo to be received by the recipient.
Roads wouldn’t happen because sea transport is just so much faster and cheaper in this era compared to ground transport. We’re talking order-of-magnitude cheaper. Cost means Malacca and Pahang will communicate by sea; the money spent on a road through the jungle would be much better spent on ships and naval facilities to ensure the Romans don’t lose command of the sea.
OOC: Because chocolate is superior to vanilla. And now I want ice cream.
I’d say that current policy of ‘subtly favor whoever has irritated us the least recently’ is a bad policy, bad for building up goodwill but good at alienating people. But that said, I think Venkata Raya was fully in the right for giving the Romans a good berating. Because the Romans were considering an utterly brazen violation of Vijayanagar sovereignty and neutrality, by proposing sending a fleet into Vijayanagara waters and attacking their Spanish foes. Which also displays a callous disregard for collateral damage that would inevitably be afflicted on Vijayanagara subjects. Yes, the Romans decided not to do it, but it never should’ve been on the table in the first place.
Vijayanagar is a lot like a much bigger version of Ethiopia. It’s got a large centralized core that’s well developed and is pound-for-pound the best part of the Empire. But the majority of the Empire is still comprised of vassal rulers of varying degrees of autonomy.
Vijayanagar was able to send a powerful offensive to the north to drive the Persians out of India, but it was unable to finish the job because riding herd on all the vassals is a full-time job by itself. So Vijayanagar can project immense power outside its border, but can’t keep it up for long. The offensive lasted just 1 campaigning season and that was it. Invade Vijayanagar on the other hand, and you die horribly.
The Oudh+Bengal combo is comparable, or possibly even slightly bigger than Vijayanagar (because the Gangetic plain has a ton of people). They’re an existential threat to Vijayanagar, but nobody else is. Rhomania, for instance, would have to find a way to sealift and supply every single tagma it has to India in order to be a comparable menace.
Vijayanagar has the immense boon of me having a soft spot for it. It’s got an utterly awesome name, and I look on it as the Indian version of OTL Byzantium. The last and most brilliant empire of Hindu South India, glorious in its heyday, pinnacle of an ancient age but now largely forgotten by the modern age. I can’t help but love it.
As for India, a couple of things are certain. One, it will never be unified, either by foreigners or natives. Two, foreign colonialism will be minimal compared to OTL. In fact, the level of foreign colonialism at this point ITTL is likely to be the high point. Three, come the modern era at least one of the Indian states will be in the great power club.
It’s popular in Greek translation, but certainly not on the level of Homer’s works. Virgil and the Aeneid would be part of the ‘Latin classics’, known in Rhomania in Greek translation. They’re hailed as important and significant, but not on the level of the Greek classics. Also expect more focus on Greek historians of Rome like Polybius and Plutarch.
The Roman-Greek relation is…complicated, but then that’s OTL. Rhomania is politically Roman, but culturally Greek.
Local powers as counterweights to Mataram is a problem because Mataram, in terms of Indonesia, is massive. It really is the China of the region. To get comparable players, one needs to look to the mainland realms. But while they have the power to face Mataram, the mainland realms are far enough away that they don’t care.
Keep a pin in the thought behind your last paragraph.
Letting the Romans be the middleman would defeat the whole point of rounding Africa in the first place. It’d be reverting to the medieval trade pattern. Never going to happen.
Cham’s been a better ally for Rhomania, but then I’d argue that Rhomania has been a better ally for the Cham compared to Mataram.
Probably never. Because being Bishop of Rome is essential to being THE Pope. It’d be conceding the Schism itself, and saying the other guy was right all along.
See Evilprodigy’s response. Plus remaining Catholic is a good way for Hungary to assert its own independence and agency. There might be some merchant conversions, but that’s it.
I should've waited to post the response post until I was ready, but too late now...
The next part of Not the End: The Empire Under the Laskarids has been posted for Megas Kyr patrons on Patreon. The long pursuit of Michael Palaiologos finally ends in success for Theodoros II Laskaris, marking a crucial turning point in his reign. For the rest of his reign, his focus will be on Europe, his first priority the Queen of Cities, which has languished under Latin occupation for far too long.
Thank you again for your support.
The next part of Not the End: The Empire Under the Laskarids has been posted for Megas Kyr patrons on Patreon. The long pursuit of Michael Palaiologos finally ends in success for Theodoros II Laskaris, marking a crucial turning point in his reign. For the rest of his reign, his focus will be on Europe, his first priority the Queen of Cities, which has languished under Latin occupation for far too long.
Thank you again for your support.