An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

We gotta give it up for the Malays, we couldn't have won this without them. They are True Romans through and through

It would be amazing to see the Malays go the way of the Greeks, still unique, but considering themselves as Roman as anyone else, and certainly more than the Latins. No idea how that could happen though, let alone engineered.

Though I do love the idea of a dynasty rising to the Imperial Purple from Indonesia. Would be really cool to see. Especially one that could be considered Malay, or alternatively, from the royalty of Mataram or Majapahit

 

[JSC]

It would be amazing to see the Malays go the way of the Greeks, still unique, but considering themselves as Roman as anyone else, and certainly more than the Latins. No idea how that could happen though, let alone engineered.

Though I do love the idea of a dynasty rising to the Imperial Purple from Indonesia. Would be really cool to see. Especially one that could be considered Malay, or alternatively, from the royalty of Mataram or Majapahit

I think it’s already been discussed and revealed that the Malays; amongst other groups; will see themselves as wholly Roman by the present day.

They will be overwhelmingly Greek Orthodox and Greek will be the language of administration and business even if local languages are still used.

Rhomania has the advantage that to be Rhomanian does not require one to be a certain ethnic group in the eyes of the government and more importantly the people themselves. Rhomanians already encompass Greeks, Armenians, Anatolian Turks, Albanians and Sudanese (descendants of slaves); adding Malays, Sinhalese (on Taprobane), the various ethnicities in the Philippines and parts of Indonesia is not revolutionary from a Roman mindset.

In the long run it will be Rome’s greatest advantage in the east. Rome isn’t building colonies as we understand the term but fully functioning political entities that are loyal to the centre because they see themselves as part of the whole rather than just an ATM. The industry in Taprobane, Pahang, and Pygros is already above what any European power built in the east before the 19th century and it will only continue to grow.

 

[Duke of Orlando]

This should be a TTL definitive example of a pyrrhic victory.

Costly victory? Certainly. Pyrrh victory? Not so much. Yes the Roman ship lords lost a lot of capital and a decent amount of men but Spain is essentially kicked out out Island Asia at this point (Malacca and the surrounding area was their only actual territory to my knowledge, and I’d bet that Sunda isn’t long for this world regardless of any ceasefire) and I’m sure the Roman government will be happy to assist in the economic recovery out East.

In return the Romans essentially control the Malay Penisula, have less competition in the area, have space to recover without fear of counter attack, and maybe can get a little bit of Sunda if they help enough. Along with anything they gain in Africa and Italy. Not really a pyrrhic victory at all in my opinion.

Also does anyone else think that Vijayanagara’s foreign policy being decided by pettiness and brow beatings is gonna backfire big time one day? I mean right now they’re the big dog and no one can really do anything more than take it. But one day they’ll be in a weakened position with a bad ruler and he’s going to brow beat the wrong diplomat. And it’s gonna hurt most of the parties involved a lot.

 

[E_x_c_u_b_i_t_o_r_e]

Costly victory? Certainly. Pyrrh victory? Not so much. Yes the Roman ship lords lost a lot of capital and a decent amount of men but Spain is essentially kicked out out Island Asia at this point (Malacca and the surrounding area was their only actual territory to my knowledge, and I’d bet that Sunda isn’t long for this world regardless of any ceasefire) and I’m sure the Roman government will be happy to assist in the economic recovery out East.

In return the Romans essentially control the Malay Penisula, have less competition in the area, have space to recover without fear of counter attack, and maybe can get a little bit of Sunda if they help enough. Along with anything they gain in Africa and Italy. Not really a pyrrhic victory at all in my opinion.

Also does anyone else think that Vijayanagara’s foreign policy being decided by pettiness and brow beatings is gonna backfire big time one day? I mean right now they’re the big dog and no one can really do anything more than take it. But one day they’ll be in a weakened position with a bad ruler and he’s going to brow beat the wrong diplomat. And it’s gonna hurt most of the parties involved a lot.

Well Vijayanagara's position as the top dog on the world will certainly be overruled. Give it time their sphere of influence will certainly be curtailed sharply. From the upcoming behemoths on Northern India, Roman domination in the far-east and western European presence on India itself. I'd say their golden age will soon come to an end when abrupt changes to this world will shatter their perspective. By that I mean for all their wealth and power I don't think they would be having a fun time when technology advances across the decades and century to come. They'll have to adapt and catch up, but given their position as the jewel of the world. I'd say the chances are it'll take them centuries to buff up.

 

[JSC]

Well Vijayanagara's position as the top dog on the world will certainly be overruled. Give it time their sphere of influence will certainly be curtailed sharply. From the upcoming behemoths on Northern India, Roman domination in the far-east and western European presence on India itself. I'd say their golden age will soon come to an end when abrupt changes to this world will shatter their perspective. By that I mean for all their wealth and power I don't think they would be having a fun time when technology advances across the decades and century to come. They'll have to adapt and catch up, but given their position as the jewel of the world. I'd say the chances are it'll take them centuries to buff up.

I would be surprised if Vijiyanagar lasts to the modern day. It is a hugely multi-ethnic empire that is already 200years old. From looking through history most Indian dynasties/empires last in the 100-400 range so it’s still got some legs but wouldn’t surprise me to see it drop a peg or two as rival states arise in the north and chip away at the frontier.

Mind you that doesn’t mean Southern India can’t still be very influential. Even the empire breaking into 10 states; a random number; would likely leave two or three with German population levels and another group around Spanish levels. Essentially a European equivalent but much more dense. It might even be beneficial in the long term for this to happen. Having 2 or 3 maritime focused states and another couple land focused could allow each state to fully develop their infrastructure in a way a united empire wouldn’t.

I’d be curious to see how centralized Vijiyanagar actually is. In OTL it was attempts at centralization; amongst other things; in the 16th century that set off large scale rebellions that ultimately broke the dynasties power. If those attempts at centralization never occurred it could explain why Vijiyanagar is still going strong ITTL rather than being 12 years to dissolution. It would also suggest though that local kings still have immense power and the Vijiyanagar army, though large, would be unable to act unless there was buy in from those same local kings. Vijiyanagar in this regard would be comparable to a “super Germany”; immensely powerful within its own sphere but not able to project nearly as much as its population would suggest.

Further going down this scenario the Vijiyanagar navy could be an attempt by the current monarch to expand royal power and could potentially set off a series of rebellions by local elites who fear a loss of power or local elites who feel they have been bypassed. A series of rebellions that an ambitious Kapetanate of Taprobane with a gifted naval officer might just try to exploit to break the only real threat to Taprobane.

 

[Cryostorm]

I would be surprised if Vijiyanagar lasts to the modern day. It is a hugely multi-ethnic empire that is already 200years old. From looking through history most Indian dynasties/empires last in the 100-400 range so it’s still got some legs but wouldn’t surprise me to see it drop a peg or two as rival states arise in the north and chip away at the frontier.

Mind you that doesn’t mean Southern India can’t still be very influential. Even the empire breaking into 10 states; a random number; would likely leave two or three with German population levels and another group around Spanish levels. Essentially a European equivalent but much more dense. It might even be beneficial in the long term for this to happen. Having 2 or 3 maritime focused states and another couple land focused could allow each state to fully develop their infrastructure in a way a united empire wouldn’t.

I’d be curious to see how centralized Vijiyanagar actually is. In OTL it was attempts at centralization; amongst other things; in the 16th century that set off large scale rebellions that ultimately broke the dynasties power. If those attempts at centralization never occurred it could explain why Vijiyanagar is still going strong ITTL rather than being 12 years to dissolution. It would also suggest though that local kings still have immense power and the Vijiyanagar army, though large, would be unable to act unless there was buy in from those same local kings. Vijiyanagar in this regard would be comparable to a “super Germany”; immensely powerful within its own sphere but not able to project nearly as much as its population would suggest.

Further going down this scenario the Vijiyanagar navy could be an attempt by the current monarch to expand royal power and could potentially set off a series of rebellions by local elites who fear a loss of power or local elites who feel they have been bypassed. A series of rebellions that an ambitious Kapetanate of Taprobane with a gifted naval officer might just try to exploit to break the only real threat to Taprobane.

If I am not mistaken Vijayanagara is rather centralized in the southern cone while more reliant on vassals the farther north one goes, similar to Ethiopia's setup.

 

[unix_fan]

I feel like vijiyanagar Will go through a third century crisis moment at some point.

 

[Frame]

If Vijay does collapse i hope Rome is able to set up a client state in the far south and perhaps take some more cities on the coast

 

[minifidel]

Vijayanagar is a weight class above all of its neighbors combined, and the improvements in communication infrastructure are going to make internal crises less likely to cause terminal decline. I suspect that Vijayanagar is going to be one of the major powers in the multipolar world that's going to come out of TTL.

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

Vijayanagar is a weight class above all of its neighbors combined, and the improvements in communication infrastructure are going to make internal crises less likely to cause terminal decline. I suspect that Vijayanagar is going to be one of the major powers in the multipolar world that's going to come out of TTL.

Last time I checked they were incredibly alarmed by an alliance bloc in the Ganges that raised that region to be a threat to even Vijayanagar if it came to a fight. Whilst I'd agree some sort of Indian power will exist, Vijayanagar does act a lot like the Late-Qing. Excluding Rome (ITTL) there is no eternal Empire.

 

[Frame]

Apologies if i already asked this but is there still a somewhat significant Zoroastrian population in the ottoman empire?

 

[Cryostorm]

Apologies if i already asked this but is there still a somewhat significant Zoroastrian population in the ottoman empire?

No, by this time only very remote rural villages and out of the way groups still follow it.

 

[Frame]

Also, what do Romans think of the Anead and the other works of virgil? I hope he is still a part of the Roman canon

 

[Cryostorm]

Also, what do Romans think of the Anead and the other works of virgil? I hope he is still a part of the Roman canon

I would be surprised if the Aeneid isn't well liked and part of classical education. If nothing else it helps give some bridging of the dual Roman/Greek identity that Rhomania has.

 

[Machiavelli Jr]

I would be surprised if the Aeneid isn't well liked and part of classical education. If nothing else it helps give some bridging of the dual Roman/Greek identity that Rhomania has.

I'm not sure how much Latin there would be in general education - remember the OTL Eastern Roman Empire stopped operating in Latin in the 6th century and Classical Greek (which is pretty far from what they're speaking in daily life) occupies that niche in society and education. I would expect there to be far less Latin in Rhoman schools than there was Greek in contemporary Western schools OTL - so getting to the point of reading the Aeneid in the original is going to be a university thing.

I do think it would be popular in 'modern' Greek translation as part of the Trojan Wars story in general - it's not exactly a key addition to the plot but it is one of the good bits. With any luck many of the lost bits of the Epic Cycle have been rediscovered in Rhomania - I know none of them were available to Photius four centuries before the PoD but that doesn't mean there were no copies in existence, just that he didn't have them.

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

I won't lie, upon more reading it is rather weird that the Greco-Romans don't have issue with Aeneas not being.. well, either.

Fair he founded Rome, but he wasn't on the Greek side during the Trojan War, and was in fact, Anatolian. Its great for a sort of "Anatolia is our first homeland" myth, but I do find it utterly bizarre over any of the Danaan.

 

[Lascaris]

I won't lie, upon more reading it is rather weird that the Greco-Romans don't have issue with Aeneas not being.. well, either.

Fair he founded Rome, but he wasn't on the Greek side during the Trojan War, and was in fact, Anatolian. Its great for a sort of "Anatolia is our first homeland" myth, but I do find it utterly bizarre over any of the Danaan.

He's the son of Aphrodite. How much more Greek can he get?

 

[LordSamarkand]

He's the son of Aphrodite. How much more Greek can he get?

He was the son of Venus, the Roman version of Aphrodite.

 

[Lascaris]

He was the son of Venus, the Roman version of Aphrodite.

She's not a Roman version they are one and the same both Greeks and Romans agreed on that. Besides the story of Aeneas being the son of Aphrodite is both in the Iliad and in the Homeric hymns, both predating our upstart cousins even existing.

 

[Cryostorm]

I won't lie, upon more reading it is rather weird that the Greco-Romans don't have issue with Aeneas not being.. well, either.

Fair he founded Rome, but he wasn't on the Greek side during the Trojan War, and was in fact, Anatolian. Its great for a sort of "Anatolia is our first homeland" myth, but I do find it utterly bizarre over any of the Danaan.

Well to an extent both sides of the Trojan War would have been considered Greek by the descendants. They spoke similar, and f not the same, language, worshipped the same gods, and were culturally similar. Of course this is largely based on the idea the the Aegean Sea is not a boundary point.