An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania
- Thread starter Basileus444
- Start date
How much they emulated the westerners in terms of weaponry,military doctrines,administrative practices,trade,education etc....
So how do the 'Latin' states and their societies percieve Rhomania culturally?
I suspect the anti-Latin feeling of Rhomania is mostly all one-way. From the West's perspective, the Fourth Crusade may as well be ancient history, as it's not particularly relevant to them.
Besides that, you have states like Arles, the North, and the Baltic country (whose name escapes me) that have generally had positive historical connections to the Romans.
But what about the 10th? In Mainz Europe, bad feeling is probably still present.
The baltic country is Prussia, a new state under a Lakarid dynast, grandson of Giorgios.
Ain, HanEmpire, and Soverihn: Thank you. 
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Arrix85: The Eternal War is inspired by the OTL Long Turkish War.
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I don’t believe Bengal is a spice region but it was quite wealthy during the Mughal period, which probably helps explain why British rule in India first became a going concern there. The Portuguese and other Latins have had a hard time getting established in southern India as Roman Taprobane is right next door and the western ship lords do not like the company.
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Darthfanta: The Romans don’t have a prayer of conquering China. Grabbing some coastal enclaves similar to OTL Macau, Hong Kong, or Tsingtao are feasible but anything more is not happening.
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The Ottomans and Omani are fully ‘modernized’ when it comes to military technology, although Islam IOTL had a serious dislike for printing presses which makes knowledge diffusion difficult. The rest of Asia is a bit behind, more so when it comes to naval technology (the Omani are a major exception and the Vijayanagara somewhat of one), but not by a huge margin. To put it in EU terms, India, China, and Indonesia are behind but just by 1 or 2 tech levels, and not particularly significant ones.
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Stark: China is massive. If the Romans transferred every single heartland tourma to China they would be trying to conquer and occupy a country whose people would outnumber the Roman army 1000 to 1.
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Namayan: Something like that. The Romans are having a much easier time of it in Indian than Indonesian/Chinese waters.
The Romans are having a much easier time of it in Indian than Indonesian/Chinese waters. /
Frustrated Progressive: Theodoros Sideros is the son of Timur II and Maria Laskarina, and is himself married to Aikaterine Drakina, the second daughter of Empress Helena. He has one living son Demetrios (his older brother Alexios died in infancy), the writer of that letter, and two daughters Anna and Zoe. Anna is Duchess of Verona and Padua with her Hungarian husband and Zoe is Empress of All the North.
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I’m currently undecided with what I want to do with Japan.
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Average literacy in the heartland for adult males is 45%, give or take a few percentage points, and female literacy around 30% with the same potential variance.
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Alexandria Eschate: It varies; the idea of a united Latin bloc is a creation of Roman imagination and phobias. To most it is a somewhat exotic and odd state, but still part of the European political order (the best analogy I can think of is OTL Russia's relationship with the west). Theodora’s diplomatic tours have played a huge role in that. It is viewed with some fear and annoyance as a large, wealthy, and powerful rival. In Germany rivalry over the Roman Imperial title is also a factor and the pirate attacks from both sides is a constant thorn in Triune-Roman relations.
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Tyg: Yes, the anti-Latin animus is from the Roman end. The Fourth Crusade, combined with the Black Day and the Tenth Crusade have left what could be dubbed a cultural scar. Much of the time it is lurking beneath the surface and is not too much of an issue in international relations. But come a Latin invasion, confirmation bias kicks in and bad memories come flooding back. Basically a limited war can be fought with a Muslim power. However with the Romans, a Latin invasion is presumed to be another Fourth Crusade/Black Day/Tenth Crusade and thereby an existential threat.
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The Latins don’t get any of this, because it was both a long time ago and the Romans were the ones on the receiving end, so these events cut much deeper.
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The country is the Kingdom of Prussia, currently ruled by Anastasios Doukas Laskaris Komnenos Drakos, the eldest son of Princess Theodora Komnena. The Megas Rigas of Russia is either Alexios or Ioannes (Looking back I’ve used both names to refer to the same character) Laskaris, son of Giorgios Laskaris, and married to Eudoxia Drakina, the twin sister of Aikaterine Drakina who is married to Theodoros Sideros.
) Laskaris, son of Giorgios Laskaris, and married to Eudoxia Drakina, the twin sister of Aikaterine Drakina who is married to Theodoros Sideros. I know Islam didn't really do anything much in the way of science and technology after the mongol sack of Baghdad, but why did the Islamic world not like printing presses?
Also, b/c no ottoman empire in Europe, does this mean that the Acropolis and all the other ancient buildings in Athens will survive intact? and do the romans still have a aqueduct building tradition? do Constantinople, Nicaea, Smyrna, Thessaloniki, and Antioch (and all the other large cities) have their own water delivery system?
thanks and good bacon,
Swagmiester
Also, b/c no ottoman empire in Europe, does this mean that the Acropolis and all the other ancient buildings in Athens will survive intact? and do the romans still have a aqueduct building tradition? do Constantinople, Nicaea, Smyrna, Thessaloniki, and Antioch (and all the other large cities) have their own water delivery system?
thanks and good bacon,
Swagmiester
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Muslim scribes threw up very strong opposition to printing presses, since they basically spelled doom for their livelihoods. Their lobby led to the Ottoman Empire, the most powerful and influential of Islamic states, having a blanket ban on the device well into the 18th century. This example likely played a strong part in the lack of interest in printed materials in the Islamic world.
Muslim intellectuals also didn't like printing presses because it gave out privileged information to the masses, whom they believed were undeserving or unfit of properly discerning & applying such knowledge. Theological dogma got in the way as well, since printing Quran could show disrespect to Allah by removing the care and dedication of scribes with heartless machines.
They probably felt justified in doing so, considering the extreme amount of heterodox and heretical beliefs that sprouted in the Christian world after the Printing Presses became widespread. After all, the Islamic world did not undergo blood baths akin to the Christian Reformation.
Those cities definitely do have aqueducts.
The Romans have always loved building aqueducts and sewers, and they never lost the technologies in the first place unlike those filthy Latins.
Also ITTL, Empress Anna Laskaris set up the precedence of equipping urban centres with fresh water delivery systems (aqueducts), hygiene maintenance services (bathhouses) and sewage disposal systems (...sewers), based on reports by the doctors of Antioch University linking rats to the Plague.
The thinking went: less filth in cities -> less rats in cities -> less disease in cities.
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Donald Reaver
Donor
I remember we had a discussion about Athens at one point. Athens in this time is a backwater and the Greek heritage is not looked up too as nearly as much as the Roman heritage. So for now at least it should not be disturbed too much and the chances of remains from ancient Greece lasting longer with out plundering or damage is much better.
Athens is at this point basically like: "we're just another backwater Greek hill town, except we have (points to acropolis) THESE THINGS, whatever the hell that they are" and its always nice to have a pretty much fully intact Parthenon in any alt history.
thanks and good bacon,
Swagmiester
" and its always nice to have a pretty much fully intact Parthenon in any alt history.But it sure doing that type of stuff now
thanks and good bacon,
Swagmiester
So are the Asian countries fully capable of research and development of western weaponry at this point or are they tech borrowers in the sense that they either copy western weaponry or outright just buy them from the west(in original timeline,Ming was more or less a tech borrower in the sense that they mainly try to buy or emulate western arms mainly)?
Well the ship lords have a brisk arms trade in the East if that helps.
Evilprodigy
Donor
I find it interesting that Antioch got primacy over so much off the East. I would figure that balancing the needs of the Patriarchs in Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria would be of serious concern to prevent monopolizing of church power under one of them (which could be a determent to imperial control should they fall out of favour). It may have been better for Roman to split the Roman East between Antioch and Jerusalem or establish rules for who gets what across the world so as to prevent any more of these such disputes later.
Perhaps give Antioch Asia save what Jerusalem gets, which would be the southern parts of Asia so Arabia south of Kuwait, Southern India, SE Asia, Indonesia, Australia, and other such places while Antioch gets like Japan, China, Persia and Mesopotamia, Central Asia, North India, Philippines, Taiwan, lots of prime real estate but they would need to work to convert it and may actually encourage such efforts as a result. Alexandria gets Africa save the Barbary coast while Rome gets that plus Europe west of and including Venice.
I do wonder though, how would they split up the jurisdiction of the New World? There are no Orthodox colonies there but would making a new Patriarch be out of the question to cover the two continents?
Perhaps give Antioch Asia save what Jerusalem gets, which would be the southern parts of Asia so Arabia south of Kuwait, Southern India, SE Asia, Indonesia, Australia, and other such places while Antioch gets like Japan, China, Persia and Mesopotamia, Central Asia, North India, Philippines, Taiwan, lots of prime real estate but they would need to work to convert it and may actually encourage such efforts as a result. Alexandria gets Africa save the Barbary coast while Rome gets that plus Europe west of and including Venice.
I do wonder though, how would they split up the jurisdiction of the New World? There are no Orthodox colonies there but would making a new Patriarch be out of the question to cover the two continents?
Well, Helena needed to decrease the power of the Patriarch in Constantinople, and Antioch was the only other contender. It's not set in stone, but it's firmly established.
And now for something completely unrelated. What's up with Al-Jahmr? I just always found the concept so novel and curious. It can just go into whatever direction. Favela ISIS vs cocaine fueled syncretic voodoo natives in the nightmare scenario. Americas could also repeat the European situation, Isthmus of Panama becoming the new Strait of Gibraltar between the Islamic South and Christian North.
"Mufti Salahuddin Al-Turki met with Abdul Ibn Faranda, Beg of Al-Jahmr, in his mansion of Dar Al-Bahar in Dihliz to congratulate him on the behalf of our Imperial Sovereign. He took his third wife yesterday, an arab beauty of great virtue from Carthago, of a tribe that pledges loyalty to the Emperor." - Roman Courier, /2/1/15
"Mufti Salahuddin Al-Turki met with Abdul Ibn Faranda, Beg of Al-Jahmr, in his mansion of Dar Al-Bahar in Dihliz to congratulate him on the behalf of our Imperial Sovereign. He took his third wife yesterday, an arab beauty of great virtue from Carthago, of a tribe that pledges loyalty to the Emperor." - Roman Courier, /2/1/15
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And now for something completely unrelated. What's up with Al-Jahmr? I just always found the concept so novel and curious. It can just go into whatever direction. Favela ISIS vs cocaine fueled syncretic voodoo natives in the nightmare scenario. Americas could also repeat the European situation, Isthmus of Panama becoming the new Strait of Gibraltar between the Islamic South and Christian North.
"Mufti Salahuddin Al-Turki met with Abdul Ibn Faranda, Beg of Al-Jahmr, in his mansion of Dar Al-Bahar in Dihliz to congratulate him on the behalf of our Imperial Sovereign. He took his third wife yesterday, an arab beauty of great virtue from Carthago, of a tribe that pledges loyalty to the Emperor." - Roman Courier, /2/1/15
Well, there is a Portuguese colony in the south, so the Isthumus wouldn't be the line. I think B444 said there will be an Americas-only update relatively soon.
Sunnis and Catholics, heretics all the same. Besides, Portuguese colonization of South America is so OTL. Although, if the Marinids have a bit of Europe, I suppose it'd be only fair the Christians have a springboard in South America.
I'm being real original by being fascinated by Vinland as well. Successful Viking pagan colony is too much of a stretch, but a bunch of Scandinavian settlers practicing paganism, both or something in between (drinking beer in a sacred groove, asking St. Urbanus to make the harvest great) is entirely possible. The Northerners keep the Old Gods. I suppose the colonies are gaining a big upgrade in importance as the Empires of Europe turn their sights to the lands beyond the Atlantic. OTL colonists had a lucrative fur trade business, so I suppose there'll soon be many wanting to get a piece of that trans-atlantic beaver fur trade action.
And around this time OTL, the pope was Sixtus V that has been rumored was Croatian. Just got me thinking since it's been so quiet in Europe. Hypothetically, what if the Hungarians installed a Hungarian/Croatian pope through greasing some right palms, and there would be a huge shift in power overnight. Fun to toy with the idea.
Besides, Portuguese colonization of South America is so OTL. Although, if the Marinids have a bit of Europe, I suppose it'd be only fair the Christians have a springboard in South America.I'm being real original by being fascinated by Vinland as well. Successful Viking pagan colony is too much of a stretch, but a bunch of Scandinavian settlers practicing paganism, both or something in between (drinking beer in a sacred groove, asking St. Urbanus to make the harvest great) is entirely possible. The Northerners keep the Old Gods
. I suppose the colonies are gaining a big upgrade in importance as the Empires of Europe turn their sights to the lands beyond the Atlantic. OTL colonists had a lucrative fur trade business, so I suppose there'll soon be many wanting to get a piece of that trans-atlantic beaver fur trade action.And around this time OTL, the pope was Sixtus V that has been rumored was Croatian. Just got me thinking since it's been so quiet in Europe. Hypothetically, what if the Hungarians installed a Hungarian/Croatian pope through greasing some right palms, and there would be a huge shift in power overnight. Fun to toy with the idea.
Well, of course, he'd be the Avignon Pope. I don't see why that would be so unusual, I'm guessing both of the TTL Papacies would be similar to their OTL counterpart in they they're rather corrupt, although I always thought the Avignon Papacy was less so, due to Gregory and his successors.Sunnis and Catholics, heretics all the same.
I'm being real original by being fascinated by Vinland as well. Successful Viking pagan colony is too much of a stretch, but a bunch of Scandinavian settlers practicing paganism, both or something in between (drinking beer in a sacred groove, asking St. Urbanus to make the harvest great) is entirely possible. The Northerners keep the Old Gods
And around this time OTL, the pope was Sixtus V that has been rumored was Croatian. Just got me thinking since it's been so quiet in Europe. Hypothetically, what if the Hungarians installed a Hungarian/Croatian pope through greasing some right palms, and there would be a huge shift in power overnight. Fun to toy with the idea.
I'm being real original by being fascinated by Vinland as well. Successful Viking pagan colony is too much of a stretch, but a bunch of Scandinavian settlers practicing paganism, both or something in between (drinking beer in a sacred groove, asking St. Urbanus to make the harvest great) is entirely possible. The Northerners keep the Old Gods
Pagan Vinland would be cool, but the POD was in the 13th century. Still, two guys can dream, can't they?
And now for something completely unrelated. What's up with Al-Jahmr? I just always found the concept so novel and curious. It can just go into whatever direction. Favela ISIS vs cocaine fueled syncretic voodoo natives in the nightmare scenario. Americas could also repeat the European situation, Isthmus of Panama becoming the new Strait of Gibraltar between the Islamic South and Christian North.
"Mufti Salahuddin Al-Turki met with Abdul Ibn Faranda, Beg of Al-Jahmr, in his mansion of Dar Al-Bahar in Dihliz to congratulate him on the behalf of our Imperial Sovereign. He took his third wife yesterday, an arab beauty of great virtue from Carthago, of a tribe that pledges loyalty to the Emperor." - Roman Courier, /2/1/15
Well then there's some problems.
1, The Andalusians don't speak Arabic. They speak Mosarabic. Mosarabic sounds similar in name to Arabic, but it is actually a romance language.
2. B/c of reason #1, the Andalusians are more likely to view themselves as European Muslims, like Albanians in otl (not ttl) they will probably view themselves as much different from even Maghrebi Arabs. (note that I am not calling them something like Spanish Arabs) So their culture (+ the fact that Christians still make up half their populations) is probably a lot more "European" than it would seem.
3. Unfortunately, the Maghreb ittl seems to be turning into a madhouse. The Andalusians already hated being ruled by the Maghreb, so the lack of true power in north Africa gives a greater incentive for them to associate with the other Europeans instead of Arabs. Plus the fact that the other nations of Iberia now recognize and respect Andalusia (i'm assuming that will be their nation's name to others, they called themselves al-alandus).
Well that turned out to be a greater tangent than I expected. I know your post was probably a joke though. I wanted to dispel the illusion that the Andalusians and the Maghrebis were one and the same. Hopefully you aren't offended
.thanks and good bacon,
Swagmiester