An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

Realistically, what could the members of the accord do to Rhomania if they do annex/vassalise up to the Alps?
The Spanish are already in a perpetual conflict with them out East. The Romans will lay waste to any enemy fleets in the Mediterranean. Invading Italy via the Alps is logistically unfeasible, and there will more than enough men to repel any invasion. Rhomania is Arles’ largest trading partner, they won’t remain in the conflict long without massive subsidies.

They can ally with the Triunes and march endless armies into Imperial holdings in Italy, while flooding the Mediterranean with Triune & Spanish & Arletian fleets. If the Empire gets that huge the Accord will make common cause with King's Landing to contain it.

Yeah, as much I want to see a Roman Italy, until the Triunes a rolled back, or the Romans can build a counter-alliance outside of Arles and the Accord, Italy needs to be handled carefully. Sadly.

Although it does suggest that Arles and the Romans are going to drift apart, which does create an interesting potential for a war where Arles is Despotated alongside Italy in the distant future if the Romans do go further west. Though outside of Spain I can't see the benefit besides controlling a land route.

Tbh, if there is going to be Roman expansionism post-war then I'd expect it to be Mesopotamia/Persia (I mean, they are Timurids), Arabia or North Africa, MAYBE something out in the Far East. I think having Africa be Roman again would be very useful, especially if the Romans and the Accord fall out because a secured Africa can be one heck of a place to control entry to the Med from, with Tangiers, Ceuta, etc. It isn't Gibraltar to be sure, but still pretty effective. Which means the Romans can in theory defeat a divided Triune-Accord fleet.

It is weird to see potentially three diplomatic strategies the Romans could take at the moment. In-Accord, Pro-Accord, and Anti-Accord, all of which have some serious and interesting considerations.

 

[Shard]

I hope to see the Romans at least annexing Rome.

 

[boringasian]

Dalmatia and Istria is a combined Roman vassal state (not a Despotate but a proper vassal)

The roman flavor of government is pretty centralized as opposed to feudal monarchy, yet we have mentions of vassal states and such. @Basileus444 How much of roman territory is directly administrated by the government and how is the autonomy in the administration expressed? (like provinces, territories, protectorates, clients etc?). How many different states/provinces are there, like despotates or vassals or protectorates? The sheer scale/diversity of different dealings and relationships with components/provinces?/states?/vassals? in your own empire sounds like a headache and a barrier to expansion. Has D3 had a good look at how to make the state less complex, more powerful and less ambiguous? He shouldn't let this crisis go to waste, and he should use it to reform the state!

 

[boringasian]

Also could one use the ideology of Alexios Asanes and Friedrich Zimmermann, to make everyone equal under the eyes of the law? This would be a great way of centralizing the authority and power of the state since they declare/uphold/enforce laws, and reduce all the special privileges/deals with the nobility/church, while appealing to the mass of middle and lower classes

 

[TheWanderingReader]

Proto-communism already being birthed between a monk and a prisoner of war, an odd thing to read but a fresh one. Maybe we will be seeing some weird version of Syndicalism or Communism with religious tunes in the near future. I'm already giddy once we get to whatever WW1 scenario occurs because once it happens, so will a Kaiserreich alt history scenario

 

[Curtain Jerker]

Our author has stated that one of his long-term goals with this timeline is to show a world that has different governments than OTL. I think the author has used OTL Imperial Germany and its relatively weak democracy as the government model for 20th Century and beyond Rhomania.

I just wonder how that form of government jives with the proto-liberalism that Zimmermann and Asanes are developing. I'm curious to see what happens once the genie of classical liberalism/republicanism gets out of the bottle.

 

[minifidel]

Yeah, as much I want to see a Roman Italy, until the Triunes a rolled back, or the Romans can build a counter-alliance outside of Arles and the Accord, Italy needs to be handled carefully. Sadly.

Anything short of an entire tagmata at the Alps would be a careful handling of Italy. If D3 had contemplated the possibility of annexing the whole peninsula into the Roman sphere, he could quite conceivably achieve a similar goal without forcing the Accord's hand, and "all" it would take is a modest expansion of Sicily's northern border (possibly containing the entirety of Rome's other Italian former vassals), and then smashing North Italy into a million tiny polities.

I just wonder how that form of government jives with the proto-liberalism that Zimmermann and Asanes are developing. I'm curious to see what happens once the genie of classical liberalism/republicanism gets out of the bottle.

The way the Roman state is developing, I could also see classical liberalism getting its start in the Empire by way of "we're all equally inferior to the Emperor", with a greek version of "I am the State" and everything.

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

Our author has stated that one of his long-term goals with this timeline is to show a world that has different governments than OTL. I think the author has used OTL Imperial Germany and its relatively weak democracy as the government model for 20th Century and beyond Rhomania.

I just wonder how that form of government jives with the proto-liberalism that Zimmermann and Asanes are developing. I'm curious to see what happens once the genie of classical liberalism/republicanism gets out of the bottle.

I'm in the UK, so the idea of having a democracy with a monarchy isn't exactly something alien to me, so I expect that could work for the Romans - but it makes me curious as to what he means by different governements. Stratocracies? Syndicalism? Anarcho-Communist Federations?

Personally, I think I'd expect the Romans to federalise in the long term. I could see the Empire unifying today, but in a century or two the regions wanting local rule, with the Despotates being uses as a precedent. Thrace, Greece, Western Anatolia, Northern Anatolia, Upper Anatolia, Cilicia, Antioch District, Jerusalem District, Delta, Lower Nile, Upper Nile - all being used as terms for a Federal system. (I mean, there are more ofc, but I'm throwing things out there). Which would almost certainly encourage similar pressures in Italy, and overseas. An Imperial Federal-Stratocratic Democracy?

Domestic Federal Democracy that funds, and is protected by, a Imperial Stratocracy internationally? I can see that being very Roman. Same military hierarchy globally, but largely indifferent to local governance, Emperor still wields all that power, and the Generals are removed from domestic policy. Seems a Romanesque Government with the powerful military and subservient democracy.

 

[minifidel]

I'm in the UK, so the idea of having a democracy with a monarchy isn't exactly something alien to me, so I expect that could work for the Romans - but it makes me curious as to what he means by different governements. Stratocracies? Syndicalism? Anarcho-Communist Federations?

Personally, I think I'd expect the Romans to federalise in the long term. I could see the Empire unifying today, but in a century or two the regions wanting local rule, with the Despotates being uses as a precedent. Thrace, Greece, Western Anatolia, Northern Anatolia, Upper Anatolia, Cilicia, Antioch District, Jerusalem District, Delta, Lower Nile, Upper Nile - all being used as terms for a Federal system. (I mean, there are more ofc, but I'm throwing things out there). Which would almost certainly encourage similar pressures in Italy, and overseas. An Imperial Federal-Stratocratic Democracy?

Domestic Federal Democracy that funds, and is protected by, a Imperial Stratocracy internationally? I can see that being very Roman. Same military hierarchy globally, but largely indifferent to local governance, Emperor still wields all that power, and the Generals are removed from domestic policy. Seems a Romanesque Government with the powerful military and subservient democracy.

I'm making a second comparison to Absolutist France in as many posts, but I think that the development of Roman local governance will likely follow a similar mold: when your state identity is so centrifugal, it's nearly impossible to allow devolution to "federal" polities without significantly weakening (to the point of fragility) that centrifugal authority; in fact, I think the despotates may continue to drift away from Rome's direct authority precisely because they've been placed outside that centrifuge, which I think would be a rather novel phenomenon -- especially since in the absence of some sort of legislative body/assembly, their ties to Rome would be solely through the personal authority of the Emperor.

 

[DracoLazarus]

I'm making a second comparison to Absolutist France in as many posts, but I think that the development of Roman local governance will likely follow a similar mold: when your state identity is so centrifugal, it's nearly impossible to allow devolution to "federal" polities without significantly weakening (to the point of fragility) that centrifugal authority; in fact, I think the despotates may continue to drift away from Rome's direct authority precisely because they've been placed outside that centrifuge, which I think would be a rather novel phenomenon -- especially since in the absence of some sort of legislative body/assembly, their ties to Rome would be solely through the personal authority of the Emperor.

You may mean centripetal.
Centrifuge is decentralisation, literally fleeing from the center.

Also, Ancien Régime France was an absolute mess administratively, and the Revolution actually furthered the centralisation by streamlining the administration... And making Paris name all the prefects.

EDIT : I mean, there are good reasons some administrative reforms were kept during the Restauration. They made utter sense and were infinitely better than what there was pre-1789.

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

I'm making a second comparison to Absolutist France in as many posts, but I think that the development of Roman local governance will likely follow a similar mold: when your state identity is so centrifugal, it's nearly impossible to allow devolution to "federal" polities without significantly weakening (to the point of fragility) that centrifugal authority; in fact, I think the despotates may continue to drift away from Rome's direct authority precisely because they've been placed outside that centrifuge, which I think would be a rather novel phenomenon -- especially since in the absence of some sort of legislative body/assembly, their ties to Rome would be solely through the personal authority of the Emperor.

I'm not so sure. I think the short term will see integration first, THEN what you're describing. But I think that might be the defining feature of the Sideros period of government. Enlightened Absolutism, only for the next period of the Empire (In a couple of centuries at best). But better than France (See @DracoLazarus ). The problem is that I don't doubt the rise of Nationalism in this timeline, and the Empire will need to find a way to survive that, and I think that is either bloody, or leads to decentralisation, at least domestically - the trick with the dual system is that the upper echelons can source the best from across the Empire, making the overriding authority mutli-ethnic, but local concerns governed in micro-nation form.

 

[minifidel]

You may mean centripetal.
Centrifuge is decentralisation, literally fleeing from the center.

Also, Ancien Régime France was an absolute mess administratively, and the Revolution actually furthered the centralisation by streamlining the administration... And making Paris name all the prefects.

Indeed, centripetal is what I meant.

Agreed on the Ancien Régime being a mess, but that was in many ways a product of its feudal origins, as opposed to the already centralized nature of the Roman government system.

I'm not so sure. I think the short term will see integration first, THEN what you're describing. But I think that might be the defining feature of the Sideros period of government. Enlightened Absolutism, only for the next period of the Empire (In a couple of centuries at best). But better than France (See @DracoLazarus ). The problem is that I don't doubt the rise of Nationalism in this timeline, and the Empire will need to find a way to survive that, and I think that is either bloody, or leads to decentralisation, at least domestically - the trick with the dual system is that the upper echelons can source the best from across the Empire, making the overriding authority mutli-ethnic, but local concerns governed in micro-nation form.

I think that integration of the despotates is possible, but increasingly unlikely, as they both come with severe religious issues that the Empire may want to steer clear from after two wars with unavoidable religious undertones. Not to mention that Sicily becoming an "integral" part of the Empire (not that it isn't really integral already) may complicate D3's plans for Italy, feeding into the narrative that his eyes are set on the Alps as a western frontier for Rome.

 

[Curtain Jerker]

I'm in the UK, so the idea of having a democracy with a monarchy isn't exactly something alien to me, so I expect that could work for the Romans - but it makes me curious as to what he means by different governements. Stratocracies? Syndicalism? Anarcho-Communist Federations?

But OTL UK has a democracy, the monarch is just a figurehead. I think the author was aiming for something where the Emperor and his Chancellors have very real power and are un-elected/unaccountable to the voters' wishes.

Imperial Germany had elections, a Reichstag, and universal male suffrage but the real power lay in the hands of the Kaiser, his Cancellor(s) and other un-elected officals - Junkers, generals, Prussian nobles, etc. I think that's more the style B444 means when he talks about a different system of government.

I'm just curious how that would work in a world where proto-liberalism is starting to develop, even in the rudimentary form that it is right now. Sooner or later as we progress through the years people are gonna want a voice - a real voice - in how their government operates. I just wonder if the OTL Imperial German model would work in the 21st Century.

There's precedence of course - Rhomania can go the OTL modern-day China route and use bread, circuses, and economic growth to keep the population happy. It isn't impossible, just difficult. I'm excited to see how we get there and look forward to reading about it when the time comes.

 

[JSC]

I think one dimension on the development of Roman democracy/liberalism that can't be overlooked is the sheer prestige attached to the Roman Emperor. Regardless of other titles held by other monarchs this is a polity that can trace a direct line back to Julius Ceasar and before him all the way to Romulus and Remus. The closest parallel example in OTL would be China but even there China has never been anything other than the Hegemon right until the 19th century while Rome has had incredible highs and lows throughout its history ITTL. Simply put there is no country in Europe OTL or ITTL that can compare to the prestige of the Roman Emperor.

On top of this there is the religious aspect to consider. At this point in the story Rome has been in an off and on 1000 year war with Islam to define the border between Christianity and Islam in the East. Rome has with a huge outpouring of blood and treasure has worked to push Islam away from the Christian holy land. To add to this the widespread anti-catholic hate in Rome is going to prevent a all men are equal vibe from gaining traction of for no other reason than they will not want to "take ideas from Latin Barbarians".

Both of these factors mean that liberalism as in our world is unlikely to get widespread traction in Rome. Instead something along the lines of "all Imperial citizens are equal under the Emperor" or even "all Orthodox Christians are equal" is far more likely IMHO. There will likely be an administrative body for the people as this can be traced back to Roman Republic. However, a full constitutional monarchy or a republic can only come from an especially violent revolution and I just don't see that happening to Rome ITTL.

 

[HanEmpire]

The Roman Empire might grow into the great defender of the ideal of the Enlightened Despot. A state as rich and powerful and efficient as the German Empire, with the autocratic ideology of the Russian Empire, with longstanding policies dedicated towards the championing of the middle class and prevention of runaway wealth accumulation. A social autocracy where everyone is equal under God and Autocrat.

 

[minifidel]

Both of these factors mean that liberalism as in our world is unlikely to get widespread traction in Rome. Instead something along the lines of "all Imperial citizens are equal under the Emperor" or even "all Orthodox Christians are equal" is far more likely IMHO. There will likely be an administrative body for the people as this can be traced back to Roman Republic. However, a full constitutional monarchy or a republic can only come from an especially violent revolution and I just don't see that happening to Rome ITTL.

I think it's likely that there will be a clear distinction between, say, catholic and Latin, or muslim and Arab, etc., because the Empire has also strived to emphasize that the Emperor is a unifying figure, above and beyond the Orthodox church. Internationalism is definitely going to be far less popular in Rome, and I suspect that it'll generally be a pretty inward-looking society that just happens to have a toe in every corner of the globe.

 

[Curtain Jerker]

I think it's likely that there will be a clear distinction between, say, catholic and Latin, or muslim and Arab, etc., because the Empire has also strived to emphasize that the Emperor is a unifying figure, above and beyond the Orthodox church. Internationalism is definitely going to be far less popular in Rome, and I suspect that it'll generally be a pretty inward-looking society that just happens to have a toe in every corner of the globe.

In an era of nationalism I can see Orthodox Christianity being one of the main unifying factors for Rhomania. I can see the mentality of "it doesn't matter if you are ethnically Greek/Albanian/Turkish/Armenian/German/whatever, as long as you speak Imperial Greek and are Orthodox, you are Rhoman."

 

[Evilprodigy]

In an era of nationalism I can see Orthodox Christianity being one of the main unifying factors for Rhomania. I can see the mentality of "it doesn't matter if you are ethnically Greek/Albanian/Turkish/Armenian/German/whatever, as long as you speak Imperial Greek and are Orthodox, you are Rhoman."

They've had that concept for centuries.

The question is more if it survives industrialization.

 

[Curtain Jerker]

They've had that concept for centuries.

The question is more if it survives industrialization.

I don't see why it wouldn't at least in the core areas of the empire. One of the good things about this war is that it has fostered a sense of Rhoman identity in the face of Latin aggression. I think that shared identity only gets stronger over time, not weaker, especially with Orthodoxy and a hatred of "Latins" as unifying factors.

 

[Lascaris]

In an era of nationalism I can see Orthodox Christianity being one of the main unifying factors for Rhomania. I can see the mentality of "it doesn't matter if you are ethnically Greek/Albanian/Turkish/Armenian/German/whatever, as long as you speak Imperial Greek and are Orthodox, you are Rhoman."

With the exception of Armenia proper and maybe Albania proper I strongly suspect the rest is getting further Hellenized with every passing year. It did happen in OTL with frex the Arvanites under objectively worse conditions than the advantages Greek enjoys TTL from being the majority population of the empire, to dominating education and administration.