American Culture after Confederate Independence

An often ignored or forgotten part of history is culture. IOTL, American culture is broadly similar to the rest of "Western" civilization, but has its own foods, customs, music, and other cultural aspects. Much of our culture has undoubtedly been affected by our history, and without the devastation of two world wars, American culture is very different from European culture.

However, in a world with an independent Confederate States, American culture is almost certainly going to be very different from the way it is IOTL. While the United States is unlikely to become anything other than a predominantly Anglophone, Christian nation, pretty much every other aspect of our culture will be different. To use an example, with a much smaller "black" population, jazz is unlikely to exist at all, ultimately leading to no (or a vastly different) rock and roll.

How is American culture likely to evolve if the Confederacy wins its independence? And, for that matter, what is Confederate culture likely to be like?
 
An often ignored or forgotten part of history is culture. IOTL, American culture is broadly similar to the rest of "Western" civilization, but has its own foods, customs, music, and other cultural aspects. Much of our culture has undoubtedly been affected by our history, and without the devastation of two world wars, American culture is very different from European culture.

However, in a world with an independent Confederate States, American culture is almost certainly going to be very different from the way it is IOTL. While the United States is unlikely to become anything other than a predominantly Anglophone, Christian nation, pretty much every other aspect of our culture will be different. To use an example, with a much smaller "black" population, jazz is unlikely to exist at all, ultimately leading to no (or a vastly different) rock and roll.

How is American culture likely to evolve if the Confederacy wins its independence? And, for that matter, what is Confederate culture likely to be like?

There would be differences, but there's just one problem with your original hypothesis: Firstly, there is nothing with a surviving Confederacy that absolutely guarantees a *much* smaller African-American population. Secondly, I hate to nitpick so much, African-American influence was only part of the genesis of rock-and-roll, as there was a lot of rural Southern white(especially Scots-Irish) influence as well, and there are a *lot* of Scots-Irish in West Virginia, and Kentucky in particular.....and who's to say there might not be a notable exodus of poor whites from the C.S.A. to the Union at some point?
 
There would be differences, but there's just one problem with your original hypothesis: Firstly, there is nothing with a surviving Confederacy that absolutely guarantees a *much* smaller African-American population. Secondly, I hate to nitpick so much, African-American influence was only part of the genesis of rock-and-roll, as there was a lot of rural Southern white(especially Scots-Irish) influence as well, and there are a *lot* of Scots-Irish in West Virginia, and Kentucky in particular.....and who's to say there might not be a notable exodus of poor whites from the C.S.A. to the Union at some point?
I think you may have misunderstood what I meant by a smaller "black" population. Prior to the Great Migration, most of "black" Americans lived in the South, which in this world would no longer be a part of the United States. The rump-USA would therefor have a much smaller "black" population.
 
I think you may have misunderstood what I meant by a smaller "black" population. Prior to the Great Migration, most of "black" Americans lived in the South, which in this world would no longer be a part of the United States. The rump-USA would therefor have a much smaller "black" population.

I don't doubt the population of African-Americans in the U.S.A. would be *somewhat* smaller, yes.....but it kinda depends on what you mean by *much* smaller; regardless, there's nothing that says that slaves couldn't simply flee across the border, especially if there's a significantly enlarged Underground Railroad(which is rather likely in pretty much any "C.S.A. wins" scenario).
 
I don't doubt the population of African-Americans in the U.S.A. would be *somewhat* smaller, yes.....but it kinda depends on what you mean by *much* smaller; regardless, there's nothing that says that slaves couldn't simply flee across the border, especially if there's a significantly enlarged Underground Railroad(which is rather likely in pretty much any "C.S.A. wins" scenario).

Here's the cultural piece here though: you have the African-American experience in the USA as much more of the standard immigrant experience. They came from elsewhere fleeing the awful; this contrasts to the OTL experience of being a continual reminder of the USA's original sin. An and original sin that the white population will often be finding ways to subliminally justify to themselves up to this day. Without the South in the US, I would predict that a lot of the structural racism that post-dates Appomattix (the standard chain email stuff) isn't as needed to square the traditional story of America with the reality. They become a community whose story starts when they ran North.

Secondly, I think you'd have a weirder sort of CSA sympathy in Northern culture. Now before anyone says "how could any US citizen like or idealize the country their forefather fought and died to stop" - look at this board. Or look at post-1900. The glamourous gray uniforms can make people smolder across time... More practically, as I occasionally touch on, the OTL late 19th had a love affair with the concept or idea of eugenics that is hard to remember in a post-1945 OTL. Give everyone a few decades of reading their Austin Chamberlain, and the South will be far less apologetic about their (now viewed as farsighted) Cornerstone. This will make the South look kind of cool in the circles those ideas are zeoulously believed, and the US and Europe OTL had plenty of those circles. Take the proponents of American Empire OTL. Now give them a case where the smaller, weaker, and still ocassionaly despised CSA are being paragons of late 19th century "civilizing the lessor" to everyone who thinks as they do. I almost wonder whether the US gets imperial earlier - or does even nastier things on the reservations than OTL.

Softer culture? I think you see a larger peace time military, a move to more short term enlistment around a cadre, and some state role in making damn sure there's plenty of rail capacity heading South. Those will have some knock on effects in the culture. As far as what the US is, there's a huge example of what the US is not that isn't there OTL.

(Lastly, to head off something taking this off track, I'm positing a realistic CSA victory scenario. Thus, there is no Confederate Kentucky, Missouri, or Kansas. A surviving Albert Sydney Jonston does not capture Chicago. The state on the ground in the west during any likely peace date means that the Mississippi river is either open - I think you can make a case for big chunks of territory down the river staying US. West Virginia might keep digging coal for the North that usees it. There's no aw shucks, just take the South west so you can have a Pacific Coast either. This is a CSA that could have been, not one that allows the CSA to sweep in at the last minute to blow up the whole IJN.)

Finally, as this is a thread about the CSA, I beleive I must make this link convenient, to keep the discussion grounded in historical reality.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone_Speech
 
Here's the cultural piece here though: you have the African-American experience in the USA as much more of the standard immigrant experience. They came from elsewhere fleeing the awful; this contrasts to the OTL experience of being a continual reminder of the USA's original sin. An and original sin that the white population will often be finding ways to subliminally justify to themselves up to this day. Without the South in the US, I would predict that a lot of the structural racism that post-dates Appomattix (the standard chain email stuff) isn't as needed to square the traditional story of America with the reality. They become a community whose story starts when they ran North.

I mostly agree, though, TBH, structural racism was ever "needed" to "square" anything. More than anything, actually, it was used as a tool to divide and conquer, just as in the South, even if more covert up North.

Secondly, I think you'd have a weirder sort of CSA sympathy in Northern culture. Now before anyone says "how could any US citizen like or idealize the country their forefather fought and died to stop" - look at this board. Or look at post-1900. The glamourous gray uniforms can make people smolder across time...

It might happen in certain circles, that is indeed possible; mainly with more hardline social conservatives who might greatly resent all these "coloreds" coming up North and "adulterating", what they see as "white culture"(just as many hardcore racists do in the present era IOTL).

More practically, as I occasionally touch on, the OTL late 19th had a love affair with the concept or idea of eugenics that is hard to remember in a post-1945 OTL. Give everyone a few decades of reading their Austin Chamberlain, and the South will be far less apologetic about their (now viewed as farsighted) Cornerstone.

Yes, that's true for OTL, but was the height of popularity and scientific acceptance of eugenics that had eventually been reached just before World War I inevitable? I'm not so sure it was.

This will make the South look kind of cool in the circles those ideas are zeoulously believed, and the US and Europe OTL had plenty of those circles.

And, btw, this seems to assume that there isn't a significant backlash against eugenics based on the horrors that would be likely to occur in the C.S. starting towards the end of the 19th Century, which also seems unlikely, especially not if the actively anti-racialist branch of the Progressives(which were fairly noticeable even IOTL, but are likely to be rather more prominent ITTL) and abolitionists would have anything to say about it.

Take the proponents of American Empire OTL. Now give them a case where the smaller, weaker, and still ocassionaly despised CSA are being paragons of late 19th century "civilizing the lessor" to everyone who thinks as they do.

And it's not likely that many in Europe would be terribly accepting of how the C.S.A. does things; I can see maybe a more Prussian-dominated Germany, or even a more conservative Austria-Hungary turning a blind eye to all but the worst of the C.S.A.'s excesses, even if to mainly just put a stick in the eyes of the Brits and the French, but not much beyond that.

I almost wonder whether the US gets imperial earlier - or does even nastier things on the reservations than OTL.

Neither of these are terribly likely, especially not if the C.S.A. acts in a particularly nasty manner(such as towards Nicaragua or Cuba, for example).

Softer culture? I think you see a larger peace time military, a move to more short term enlistment around a cadre, and some state role in making damn sure there's plenty of rail capacity heading South. Those will have some knock on effects in the culture. As far as what the US is, there's a huge example of what the US is not that isn't there OTL.

It'd probably be a mixed bag: there might indeed be more veneration of the military(even if mainly because the Union was fighting the pawns of the slavers), but race relations are definitely likely to be softer on the whole(with a possible exception of a backlash by some of the more reactionary elements of society), even if some of that could be motivated by hatred of the C.S.A. than anything.

(Lastly, to head off something taking this off track, I'm positing a realistic CSA victory scenario. Thus, there is no Confederate Kentucky, Missouri, or Kansas. A surviving Albert Sydney Jonston does not capture Chicago. The state on the ground in the west during any likely peace date means that the Mississippi river is either open - I think you can make a case for big chunks of territory down the river staying US. West Virginia might keep digging coal for the North that usees it. There's no aw shucks, just take the South west so you can have a Pacific Coast either. This is a CSA that could have been, not one that allows the CSA to sweep in at the last minute to blow up the whole IJN.)

I dunno what this has to do with the Imperial Japanese Navy, but it's not *entirely* impossible that the C.S.A. might indeed be able to snag Sonora + Chihuahua under certain circumstances: Mexico could suffer a civil war similar to OTL's at some point, and if a guy like Porfirio Diaz is in charge, he might just be willing to make a deal with the Confederate "devil", as it were, and hand over those two rebellious states to the C.S.A.(remember, both Sonora and Chihuahua were both major centers for the revolutionaries during OTL's incident). At least with Diaz, I wouldn't put it past him.
 
It might happen in certain circles, that is indeed possible; mainly with more hardline social conservatives who might greatly resent all these "coloreds" coming up North and "adulterating", what they see as "white culture"(just as many hardcore racists do in the present era IOTL).

Sadly likely, yes.

Yes, that's true for OTL, but was the height of popularity and scientific acceptance of eugenics that had eventually been reached just before World War I inevitable? I'm not so sure it was.

It's going pretty strong from around 1880 to 1939. It's a period that's occasionally called "Darwin's eclipse" in some sources, and it's a fascinating study in how different even the recent past can be.

And, btw, this seems to assume that there isn't a significant backlash against eugenics based on the horrors that would be likely to occur in the C.S. starting towards the end of the 19th Century, which also seems unlikely, especially not if the actively anti-racialist branch of the Progressives(which were fairly noticeable even IOTL, but are likely to be rather more prominent ITTL) and abolitionists would have anything to say about it.

Bluntly, there wasn't any backlash against tons of perfectly horrific OTL things as long as they happened to non-Europeans. I agree that the Progressives would likely be bigger ITTL - but the Progressives had pretty fierce debates about this very issue. Not all of them were as enlightened as one would like.

There was always a big jingo contingent in the US; they couldn't get what they wanted until the Cuban situation provided an excuse for empire building. The CSA ITTL is likely to provide this sooner, is my theory.




I dunno what this has to do with the Imperial Japanese Navy, but it's not *entirely* impossible that the C.S.A. might indeed be able to snag Sonora + Chihuahua under certain circumstances: Mexico could suffer a civil war similar to OTL's at some point, and if a guy like Porfirio Diaz is in charge, he might just be willing to make a deal with the Confederate "devil", as it were, and hand over those two rebellious states to the C.S.A.(remember, both Sonora and Chihuahua were both major centers for the revolutionaries during OTL's incident). At least with Diaz, I wouldn't put it past him.

The IJN thing is a dig at what seems to the necessity of most CSA Victorious! timelines: CSA history is constructed so that in a strangely similar World War II, the bold men of the South can sweep in and Save The Day when the lily-livered Yankees done run like the cowardly dogs they are. If the North has not already gone fascist in envy of a South with better than OTL race relations. There must be a Pacific coast for this to occur, there fore the Union gives California to the CSA.
 
Sadly likely, yes.

With that said, though, there would certainly be at least a few going in the exact opposite direction as well.

It's going pretty strong from around 1880 to 1939. It's a period that's occasionally called "Darwin's eclipse" in some sources, and it's a fascinating study in how different even the recent past can be.

Yes, but again, the phenomenon, speaking overall, began to reach it's peak just before(or right around) WWI; it may be true that the decline was quite slow until WWII

Bluntly, there wasn't any backlash against tons of perfectly horrific OTL things as long as they happened to non-Europeans.

Frankly, though, a good chunk of this can be chocked up to pure ignorance of world affairs in general, and some sheer historical coincidence sprinkled in between(not to mention, also, that we live in a world in which the Union won the war).

I agree that the Progressives would likely be bigger ITTL - but the Progressives had pretty fierce debates about this very issue. Not all of them were as enlightened as one would like.

True to some extent, but the Progressives and their allies, even IOTL, were generally more egalitarian than the public at large.
There was always a big jingo contingent in the US; they couldn't get what they wanted until the Cuban situation provided an excuse for empire building. The CSA ITTL is likely to provide this sooner, is my theory.

This, however, assumes certain OTL trends stay the same, which I'm not convinced is all that likely in most scenarios, especially if the Fire-Eaters, or their successors, take over the C.S.A.
 
I mostly agree, though, TBH, structural racism was ever "needed" to "square" anything. More than anything, actually, it was used as a tool to divide and conquer, just as in the South, even if more covert up North.

Whiteness was used in the OTL US to scuttle class politics more generally, but this didn't really solidify until after the consolidation of Jim Crow, the Wilson administration and during the first Great Migration. How this will play out with a CSA that wins independence even for only a generation or two will be very interesting.
 
Whiteness was used in the OTL US to scuttle class politics more generally, but this didn't really solidify until after the consolidation of Jim Crow, the Wilson administration and during the first Great Migration.

That's true, and this is actually something I took into account when I wrote that.

How this will play out with a CSA that wins independence even for only a generation or two will be very interesting.

Yes, I definitely agree.
 
It really depends on how large the black immigrant population is, for one, and how the US responds to them: they may be seen much as OTL or worse, or they may be viewed quite sympathetically and even as protagonists against the CSA, depending on which way US revanchism goes.
 
It really depends on how large the black immigrant population is, for one, and how the US responds to them: they may be seen much as OTL or worse, or they may be viewed quite sympathetically and even as protagonists against the CSA, depending on which way US revanchism goes.

The fewer blacks and the further West they went, the better relations would be. The working class tensions between immigrant whites the urban poor and black communities led to less than stellar race relations in the North East and the Midwest, so if you can dial that back a bit you definitely have less overt racial tension. Even just exporting that tension out West where it can be less stark across half a dozen territories makes it something less than what we recognize today.

Say only 500,000 blacks make it into the Union in the aftermath of a Confederate victory, say 50,000 embark on hairbrained colonization schemes, say another 250,000 head out West to try and gain land and independence, you'd have some 200,000 spread out settling the Midwest and Northeast. That would still cause trouble in urban areas, but much less than OTL.
 
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