America: My Third TL
- Thread starter herricks
- Start date
A Tidal Wave of Hero's Blood
The Mediterranean Theater of the war at sea had turned rather dull following the destruction of the Austro-Hungarian Navy. Other than when the occasional Italian surface ship would sail from port the majority of the fighting on the Mediterranean was done by submarines & aircraft against each sides merchant & naval vessels. The only area that was seeing an increase in military activity was the sea around Malta. Almost daily Italian & German zeppelins & bomber aircraft came over the island in attempts to bomb the British garrison into submission. While thousands of British & Maltese citizens were being killed or maimed the island stood firm.
Outside the Mediterranean the naval war was about to reach a high point. As the ground war in Canada became became more & more hopeless the Royal Navy as well as the French Imperial Navy made a plan to break through the American blockade of the St. Lawrence rescuing the BEF & as many Canadian soldiers as possible. On July 24 a massive armada of 14 pre-vengeance battleships, 8 vengeance battleships (including the RN's first vengeance & armadas flagship the HMS Dreadnought), 2 armored cruisers, 20 light cruisers, 40 destroyers from the Royal Navy & 3 pre-vengeance battleships, 8 light cruisers, & 18 destroyers from the French Imperial Navy guarding well over 100 transport vessels set sail from ports in Britain & France towards the Canadian Atlantic coast to break the US Navy & rescue the British & Canadian troops still desperately fighting the Americans.
While Britain & France knew that such an armada could not be kept a secret from the Americans it was believed that their overwhelming force could destroy anything the Americans could scramble together quick enough to reach their ships before they reached Canada. American & German spies however had infiltrated the Admiralty far deeper than they had imagined & Washington knew almost the day that the armada was to set sail.
Despite prior knowledge of the fleets departure the US Navy was hard pressed to get a sizable enough amount of warships together to have chance on stopping the fleet. Nearly every available warship in the Atlantic & Caribbean was called upon to rush north. However, by the time the League armada neared North America the US Naval fleet moving to meet them consisted of 15 pre-vengeance battleships, 9 vengeance battleships (flagshipped by the first vengeance USS Vengeance), 6 armored cruisers, 28 light cruisers, 40 destroyers, & possibly most important 20 submarines. On August 4,1911 the two fleets met 350 miles east of Newfoundland near the fertile fishing grounds of the Flemish Cap. At 0815 the Battle of the Flemish Cap began.
As soon as the battleships big guns came within range of each other the fighting started. For the first three hours the battle consisted almost solely of the battleships big guns. By 1140 however the two sides ships had moved close enough together for the cruisers & battleships secondary guns to open up. By then though the US had one pre-vengeance sinking & another temporarily incapacitated fighting an engine fire, the ship was back in action y the afternoon. Despite these casualties the American warships had succeeded in sinking 2 French light cruisers & disabling one of a British battleship's main guns. For the next 11 hours the sky was filled with lead & the sea filled with blood, oil, & bodies.
As the two fleets engaged one another 25 miles further east the convoy, guarded by the majority of the destroyers, were out of reach of the American guns & planned to slip by as the battle raged on. At 1225 however, within seconds of one another, two destroyers & five transports were struck by torpedo's & quickly began sinking. As British & French destroyers quickly went into action trying to engage the American submarines the 20 subs managed to take out 6 more transports & two destroyers before having to dive deep to evade the destroyers. As the League forces destroyers scoured the area looking for the American submarines 25 of the US's destroyers moved in to engage. In 12 hours the submarine & destroyer squadron would succeed in sinking a further 24 transports & 12 destroyers at the loss of only 6 submarines & 5 destroyers. By the next day the convoy was scattered over one hundred miles of ocean. By noon on August 5 the transports & their destroyer guards were sailing back towards Europe. The rescue mission was now a complete failure however, the Battle of the Flemish Cap was far from over.
Wile the fighting had died down somewhat during the night, at dawn neither fleet had withdrew & the fighting resumed in full force. At 1505, in an ironic twist of fate, the USS Vengeance & HMS Dreadnought, the first two vengeance battleships ever in existence, began to engage one another. Both had taken minor damage during the previous day & a half of fighting but were still ultimately intact & each were credited with a pre-vengeance kill. For over an hour the two behemoths pounded on one another striking the other on several occasions. Finally at 1632 a shot from the Dreadnought's main gun penetrated the Vengeance's magazine blowing the front 1/3 completely off the rest. Of the 692 that were alive on board at the beginning of the duel only 32 would be picked up by ships from either side. Though the USS Vengeance was gone in a fiery blaze of glory the battle was turning on the British & French. The battle continued on until the night before it began dying down once more. As the sun rose on the third day however, the big guns wouldn't open up & the remaining British & French warships were withdrawing. The Americans had no plans on pursuing them.
The Battle of the Flemish Cap cost the Americans 5 pre-vengeance battleships, the USS Vengeance, 2 armored cruisers, 10 light cruisers, 12 destroyers, & possibly most importantly 8 submarines sunk. And 7 pre-vengeance battleships, 3 vengeance battleships, 3 armored cruisers, 8 light cruisers, 15 destroyers moderately to severely damaged. The Royal & French Imperial Navies however had 7 pre-vengeance battleships, 3 vengeance battleships, 2 armored cruisers, 4 light cruisers, 19 destroyers from the Royal Navy & 2 pre-vengeance battleships, 4 light cruisers, & 13 destroyers from the French Imperial Navy lost. And 4 pre-vengeance battleships, 3 vengeance battleships, 10 light cruisers, 9 destroyers from the Royal Navy & a pre-vengeance battleship, 3 light cruisers, & 8 destroyers from the French Imperial Navy moderately to severely damaged. While the US fleet had been badly mauled it had achieved the impossible decisively defeating the Royal Navy. The US Navy had finally achieved the long sought after supremacy of the waves over the British & though in the waters surrounding Europe would still pose a significant threat by the RN, throughout the rest of the Atlantic the RN wouldn't sail in an large fleet action.
Portrait from the Battle of the Flemish Cap
The Mediterranean Theater of the war at sea had turned rather dull following the destruction of the Austro-Hungarian Navy. Other than when the occasional Italian surface ship would sail from port the majority of the fighting on the Mediterranean was done by submarines & aircraft against each sides merchant & naval vessels. The only area that was seeing an increase in military activity was the sea around Malta. Almost daily Italian & German zeppelins & bomber aircraft came over the island in attempts to bomb the British garrison into submission. While thousands of British & Maltese citizens were being killed or maimed the island stood firm.
Outside the Mediterranean the naval war was about to reach a high point. As the ground war in Canada became became more & more hopeless the Royal Navy as well as the French Imperial Navy made a plan to break through the American blockade of the St. Lawrence rescuing the BEF & as many Canadian soldiers as possible. On July 24 a massive armada of 14 pre-vengeance battleships, 8 vengeance battleships (including the RN's first vengeance & armadas flagship the HMS Dreadnought), 2 armored cruisers, 20 light cruisers, 40 destroyers from the Royal Navy & 3 pre-vengeance battleships, 8 light cruisers, & 18 destroyers from the French Imperial Navy guarding well over 100 transport vessels set sail from ports in Britain & France towards the Canadian Atlantic coast to break the US Navy & rescue the British & Canadian troops still desperately fighting the Americans.
While Britain & France knew that such an armada could not be kept a secret from the Americans it was believed that their overwhelming force could destroy anything the Americans could scramble together quick enough to reach their ships before they reached Canada. American & German spies however had infiltrated the Admiralty far deeper than they had imagined & Washington knew almost the day that the armada was to set sail.
Despite prior knowledge of the fleets departure the US Navy was hard pressed to get a sizable enough amount of warships together to have chance on stopping the fleet. Nearly every available warship in the Atlantic & Caribbean was called upon to rush north. However, by the time the League armada neared North America the US Naval fleet moving to meet them consisted of 15 pre-vengeance battleships, 9 vengeance battleships (flagshipped by the first vengeance USS Vengeance), 6 armored cruisers, 28 light cruisers, 40 destroyers, & possibly most important 20 submarines. On August 4,1911 the two fleets met 350 miles east of Newfoundland near the fertile fishing grounds of the Flemish Cap. At 0815 the Battle of the Flemish Cap began.
As soon as the battleships big guns came within range of each other the fighting started. For the first three hours the battle consisted almost solely of the battleships big guns. By 1140 however the two sides ships had moved close enough together for the cruisers & battleships secondary guns to open up. By then though the US had one pre-vengeance sinking & another temporarily incapacitated fighting an engine fire, the ship was back in action y the afternoon. Despite these casualties the American warships had succeeded in sinking 2 French light cruisers & disabling one of a British battleship's main guns. For the next 11 hours the sky was filled with lead & the sea filled with blood, oil, & bodies.
As the two fleets engaged one another 25 miles further east the convoy, guarded by the majority of the destroyers, were out of reach of the American guns & planned to slip by as the battle raged on. At 1225 however, within seconds of one another, two destroyers & five transports were struck by torpedo's & quickly began sinking. As British & French destroyers quickly went into action trying to engage the American submarines the 20 subs managed to take out 6 more transports & two destroyers before having to dive deep to evade the destroyers. As the League forces destroyers scoured the area looking for the American submarines 25 of the US's destroyers moved in to engage. In 12 hours the submarine & destroyer squadron would succeed in sinking a further 24 transports & 12 destroyers at the loss of only 6 submarines & 5 destroyers. By the next day the convoy was scattered over one hundred miles of ocean. By noon on August 5 the transports & their destroyer guards were sailing back towards Europe. The rescue mission was now a complete failure however, the Battle of the Flemish Cap was far from over.
Wile the fighting had died down somewhat during the night, at dawn neither fleet had withdrew & the fighting resumed in full force. At 1505, in an ironic twist of fate, the USS Vengeance & HMS Dreadnought, the first two vengeance battleships ever in existence, began to engage one another. Both had taken minor damage during the previous day & a half of fighting but were still ultimately intact & each were credited with a pre-vengeance kill. For over an hour the two behemoths pounded on one another striking the other on several occasions. Finally at 1632 a shot from the Dreadnought's main gun penetrated the Vengeance's magazine blowing the front 1/3 completely off the rest. Of the 692 that were alive on board at the beginning of the duel only 32 would be picked up by ships from either side. Though the USS Vengeance was gone in a fiery blaze of glory the battle was turning on the British & French. The battle continued on until the night before it began dying down once more. As the sun rose on the third day however, the big guns wouldn't open up & the remaining British & French warships were withdrawing. The Americans had no plans on pursuing them.
The Battle of the Flemish Cap cost the Americans 5 pre-vengeance battleships, the USS Vengeance, 2 armored cruisers, 10 light cruisers, 12 destroyers, & possibly most importantly 8 submarines sunk. And 7 pre-vengeance battleships, 3 vengeance battleships, 3 armored cruisers, 8 light cruisers, 15 destroyers moderately to severely damaged. The Royal & French Imperial Navies however had 7 pre-vengeance battleships, 3 vengeance battleships, 2 armored cruisers, 4 light cruisers, 19 destroyers from the Royal Navy & 2 pre-vengeance battleships, 4 light cruisers, & 13 destroyers from the French Imperial Navy lost. And 4 pre-vengeance battleships, 3 vengeance battleships, 10 light cruisers, 9 destroyers from the Royal Navy & a pre-vengeance battleship, 3 light cruisers, & 8 destroyers from the French Imperial Navy moderately to severely damaged. While the US fleet had been badly mauled it had achieved the impossible decisively defeating the Royal Navy. The US Navy had finally achieved the long sought after supremacy of the waves over the British & though in the waters surrounding Europe would still pose a significant threat by the RN, throughout the rest of the Atlantic the RN wouldn't sail in an large fleet action.
Portrait from the Battle of the Flemish Cap
Last edited:
Admiral Halsey
Banned
The convoy attack mostly. However I doubt they'd be able to attack any of the French and British ships unless they got lucky and one or two stumble across their paths. Subs at that state are fickle and dangerous beasts that can't stay under for long and have quick draining batteries. In RL they'd have been lucky to even have gotten of fourth of what you have them sinking.
well TTL's subs are a few years more advanced than OTL. i figured at least on the transports that they'd get a lot
got ya on the 2ndpart & will edit
Admiral Halsey
Banned
Even then they'd still have to be extremely lucky. While German Wolfpacks during WW2 were able to occasionally attack convoy's and inflict almost that much damage it took place over days and not a single attack.
what'd be a more reasonable number that'd still cause the convoy to flee?
Admiral Halsey
Banned
If the British and French are desperate enough to try something like this then the convoy commander has probably been told to push ahead no matter what. What you'd really need is an American squadron of Cruisers and Destroyers that aren't taking part in the battle to attack the convoy. The transports would be ordered to scatter and with that many subs around an unescorted ship is easy pickings.
Broke but not out
While the Royal Navy had been badly battered it wasn't out of the fight. When news of the Battle of the Flemish Cap reached Europe it was met by both sides very differently. Throughout the nations of the League news of Britain's defeat was met with complete shock & dispair. In Britain, many refused to believe that their navy could be defeated in such a grand scale. Citizens of the Allied nations however were ecstatic & believed that this was a sign that the war was sure to be in its final hours. In Germany, wishing to take advantage of the situation, Kaiser Wilhelm ordered the navy to set sail for the North Sea to break the Royal Navy's grip on it & end the blockade of Germany.
In the early morning on August 11 8 pre-vengeance battleships, 5 vengeance battleships, 6 armored cruisers, 14 light cruisers, & 22 destroyers set sail. At 0900 the next day the German fleet was within range of the blockading British ships, a weakened line due to many pulled for the relief convoy, made up of 10 pre-vengeance battleships, 4 vengeance battleships, 8 armored cruisers, 16 light cruisers, & 25 destroyers. Within minutes of getting in range the Battle of Farsund began. For six hours the battle raged sometimes so close to shore that local Norwegians could see the fighting. By late evening it seemed that the Germans had the British on the ropes. However, at 1945 word began reaching the main vessels that they could see smoke on the horizon. In less than an hour British reinforcements arrived, 3 pre-vengeance battleships, 3 vengeance battleships, 10 armored cruisers, 10 light cruisers, & 16 destroyers were engaging the German ships. Fighting went on into the night & now it was Germany's turn to get squeezed on.
As dawn approached on the second day it was a completely different site than had been before. The German Navy was withdrawing south back to Germany & safer waters. The German fleet had suffered 2 pre-vengeance battleships, 1 vengeance battleship, 3 armored cruisers, 8 light cruisers, & 9 destroyers sunk. And 3 pre-vengeance battleship, 1 vengeance battleship, 3 armored cruisers, 4 light cruisers, & 10 destroyers moderately to severely damaged. Though the victory went to them the British had suffered 5 pre-vengeance battleship, 1 vengeance battleships, 5 armored cruisers, 8 light cruisers, & 12 destroyers sunk & 6 pre-vengeance battleship, 3 vengeance battleships, 5 armored cruisers, 6 light cruisers, & 17 destroyers moderately to severely damaged.
Though the Battle of Farsund helped the Royal Navy save face & kept Germany from breaking the blockade & possibly joining the US Navy the massive casualties they had sustained, added on to the devastating losses at Flemish Cap further cemented the fact that Britain wouldn't be master of the seas again for the foreseeable future if ever.
Across the rest of the globe namely the Pacific Theater remained much like that which was being fought in the Mediterranean as, outside the Japanese, neither sides nations could mount any serious naval offensives. In December however, ships began to gather slowly at Pearl Harbor, with British dominance broken in the Atlantic the US Navy was now looking towards the Pacific & finally breaking through to the Allied forces in Asia.
German battleship sinking
While the Royal Navy had been badly battered it wasn't out of the fight. When news of the Battle of the Flemish Cap reached Europe it was met by both sides very differently. Throughout the nations of the League news of Britain's defeat was met with complete shock & dispair. In Britain, many refused to believe that their navy could be defeated in such a grand scale. Citizens of the Allied nations however were ecstatic & believed that this was a sign that the war was sure to be in its final hours. In Germany, wishing to take advantage of the situation, Kaiser Wilhelm ordered the navy to set sail for the North Sea to break the Royal Navy's grip on it & end the blockade of Germany.
In the early morning on August 11 8 pre-vengeance battleships, 5 vengeance battleships, 6 armored cruisers, 14 light cruisers, & 22 destroyers set sail. At 0900 the next day the German fleet was within range of the blockading British ships, a weakened line due to many pulled for the relief convoy, made up of 10 pre-vengeance battleships, 4 vengeance battleships, 8 armored cruisers, 16 light cruisers, & 25 destroyers. Within minutes of getting in range the Battle of Farsund began. For six hours the battle raged sometimes so close to shore that local Norwegians could see the fighting. By late evening it seemed that the Germans had the British on the ropes. However, at 1945 word began reaching the main vessels that they could see smoke on the horizon. In less than an hour British reinforcements arrived, 3 pre-vengeance battleships, 3 vengeance battleships, 10 armored cruisers, 10 light cruisers, & 16 destroyers were engaging the German ships. Fighting went on into the night & now it was Germany's turn to get squeezed on.
As dawn approached on the second day it was a completely different site than had been before. The German Navy was withdrawing south back to Germany & safer waters. The German fleet had suffered 2 pre-vengeance battleships, 1 vengeance battleship, 3 armored cruisers, 8 light cruisers, & 9 destroyers sunk. And 3 pre-vengeance battleship, 1 vengeance battleship, 3 armored cruisers, 4 light cruisers, & 10 destroyers moderately to severely damaged. Though the victory went to them the British had suffered 5 pre-vengeance battleship, 1 vengeance battleships, 5 armored cruisers, 8 light cruisers, & 12 destroyers sunk & 6 pre-vengeance battleship, 3 vengeance battleships, 5 armored cruisers, 6 light cruisers, & 17 destroyers moderately to severely damaged.
Though the Battle of Farsund helped the Royal Navy save face & kept Germany from breaking the blockade & possibly joining the US Navy the massive casualties they had sustained, added on to the devastating losses at Flemish Cap further cemented the fact that Britain wouldn't be master of the seas again for the foreseeable future if ever.
Across the rest of the globe namely the Pacific Theater remained much like that which was being fought in the Mediterranean as, outside the Japanese, neither sides nations could mount any serious naval offensives. In December however, ships began to gather slowly at Pearl Harbor, with British dominance broken in the Atlantic the US Navy was now looking towards the Pacific & finally breaking through to the Allied forces in Asia.
German battleship sinking
Too bad US Navy cannot help the Germans out. But if troops in the Philippines are needing supplies, that is where the action is needed.
It just seems that the key to Asia Pacific is in Europe. Link up with Germany and knock the British out.
Is the ocean safe for passage of American troops to Europe? I still like the northern route to Murmansk, but the Royal Navy still might be too strong to test the grounds. I would think that the USA could have limited offensives against Mexico, let Mexico wither on the vine and start transporting troops to Europe if possible. Can American troops venture the Mediterranean or is Gibraltar too much? If so, maybe US troops to Italy to advance on Austria is best.
Knock the League out by the Domino theory: Austria first, then Russia, then France, then Britain. American troops via the Med can make the all important knock out offensive against Austria with Germany, Balkan countries, and Italy.
It just seems that the key to Asia Pacific is in Europe. Link up with Germany and knock the British out.
Is the ocean safe for passage of American troops to Europe? I still like the northern route to Murmansk, but the Royal Navy still might be too strong to test the grounds. I would think that the USA could have limited offensives against Mexico, let Mexico wither on the vine and start transporting troops to Europe if possible. Can American troops venture the Mediterranean or is Gibraltar too much? If so, maybe US troops to Italy to advance on Austria is best.
Knock the League out by the Domino theory: Austria first, then Russia, then France, then Britain. American troops via the Med can make the all important knock out offensive against Austria with Germany, Balkan countries, and Italy.
i never said everything was going to the Pacific.
who knows yet
Austria is already starting to have real big problems
Successes
While Canada was now subdued moving such a massive amount of troops to the US's other fronts would take a significant amount of time. Throughout the remainder of the year nearly every train available was commandeered by the government to begin the massive move south by the army. Although it would take some time for the armies in Canada to arrive almost immediately American forces in Mexico & Hispaniola saw a large increase in the amount of supplies they were being given. In Hispaniola the war was looking increasingly grim for the British. With the Haitians gone they were hopelessly outnumbered. On October 9 the Battle of Santo Domingo began & the entire British force defending the city consisted of only 45,000 men while the Americans fielded more than 120,000. despite the odds Britain would successfully defend the city for nearly a month before on November 2 they would finally surrender to the Americans.
As the Caribbean Campaign was being wrapped up the war in Mexico was finally beginning to get some steam. At Monterrey enough aid had finally arrived that the army could move once more. The forced stall in their advance however had given the remaining Mexican forces to prepare tough defenses in front of Saltillo. Despite the defenses Mexico had a severe problem in manpower. After the massive losses at Monterrey the Mexican Army defending against General Houston consisted of only about 115,000 mostly poorly trained & equipped conscripts that had recently arrived. The Americans however, had over 275,000 well trained troops most of whom were combat veterans. On October 7 the first US artillery shells began landing on Mexico's trenches beginning the Battle of Saltillo. Low numbers & even lower moral took there toll on the Mexican troops & on December 7 Saltillo fell to American forces following the surrender of the remaining Mexican forces defending it.
With no secondary front to divert troops the situation for Mexico was turning from desperate to hopeless. All across Mexico, both in & out of American occupied territory, the Mexican people were growing very tired of Mexico City's continuation of the war.
While Canada was now subdued moving such a massive amount of troops to the US's other fronts would take a significant amount of time. Throughout the remainder of the year nearly every train available was commandeered by the government to begin the massive move south by the army. Although it would take some time for the armies in Canada to arrive almost immediately American forces in Mexico & Hispaniola saw a large increase in the amount of supplies they were being given. In Hispaniola the war was looking increasingly grim for the British. With the Haitians gone they were hopelessly outnumbered. On October 9 the Battle of Santo Domingo began & the entire British force defending the city consisted of only 45,000 men while the Americans fielded more than 120,000. despite the odds Britain would successfully defend the city for nearly a month before on November 2 they would finally surrender to the Americans.
As the Caribbean Campaign was being wrapped up the war in Mexico was finally beginning to get some steam. At Monterrey enough aid had finally arrived that the army could move once more. The forced stall in their advance however had given the remaining Mexican forces to prepare tough defenses in front of Saltillo. Despite the defenses Mexico had a severe problem in manpower. After the massive losses at Monterrey the Mexican Army defending against General Houston consisted of only about 115,000 mostly poorly trained & equipped conscripts that had recently arrived. The Americans however, had over 275,000 well trained troops most of whom were combat veterans. On October 7 the first US artillery shells began landing on Mexico's trenches beginning the Battle of Saltillo. Low numbers & even lower moral took there toll on the Mexican troops & on December 7 Saltillo fell to American forces following the surrender of the remaining Mexican forces defending it.
With no secondary front to divert troops the situation for Mexico was turning from desperate to hopeless. All across Mexico, both in & out of American occupied territory, the Mexican people were growing very tired of Mexico City's continuation of the war.
Is Veracruz or the Mexican Pacific coast being targeted for amphibious landings behind the lines?
Troops from Seattle can be ship to shore in the Pacific while troops from Santo Domingo can be ferried to Veracruz.
Troops from Seattle may also be better positioned to aid in the Pacific, to relieve the Philippines.
The supply situation in unoccupied Mexico has to be getting bad. To pacify the people, the Americans can share the ample supplies with occupied Mexico while unoccupied parts are withering.
How are Canadians liking occupation? Are the Americans being smart and letting the Canadians go about their lives. Has any Canadian industry been brought into the fold? Instead of making war material. perhaps Canada can make consumer goods to free up a few more American factories for war material.
Culturally, maybe in your timeline Canadian football will have a bigger influence. As time goes on, instead of the intense AFL / NFL rivalry, there will be the NFL/CFL rivalry resulting in one major league, two Conferences with each conference playing its brand of football kind of like the AL and NL with the designated hitter.
Troops from Seattle can be ship to shore in the Pacific while troops from Santo Domingo can be ferried to Veracruz.
Troops from Seattle may also be better positioned to aid in the Pacific, to relieve the Philippines.
The supply situation in unoccupied Mexico has to be getting bad. To pacify the people, the Americans can share the ample supplies with occupied Mexico while unoccupied parts are withering.
How are Canadians liking occupation? Are the Americans being smart and letting the Canadians go about their lives. Has any Canadian industry been brought into the fold? Instead of making war material. perhaps Canada can make consumer goods to free up a few more American factories for war material.
Culturally, maybe in your timeline Canadian football will have a bigger influence. As time goes on, instead of the intense AFL / NFL rivalry, there will be the NFL/CFL rivalry resulting in one major league, two Conferences with each conference playing its brand of football kind of like the AL and NL with the designated hitter.
not yet
the British & Japanese navies need to be taken care of first
it's just a temporary occupation for the time being. the majority of the Canadian troops were sent home & the pows released. yeah maybe
that was actually what I did in my Confederate TL