Alternative History Armoured Fighting Vehicles Part 3

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Speaking of Soviet tank-infantry co-operation, I recently came across a reference to a classic of 1930s armour design: the Sokolov armoured sled, an unpowered sledge designed to be towed behind tanks as APCs for assaults where infantry assistance was desired. Apparently these were tried in action during the first part of the Winter War; and later Soviet armoured sleds served into at least 1943.

I wonder what the most successful possible design for a towed APC would be? For a nation to have access to enough tanks to justify the project but not enough resources to just build superior APCs would require some pretty strange circumstances...
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(This is a 1943 experimental design)
 
Tank desant is a tactic, where infantry soldiers ride into an attack on tanks, then dismount to fight on foot in the final phase of the assault. Note that this differs from infantry troops merely riding on tanks as a form of ad-hoc transportation.

Tank desant troops were infantry trained in the tactic in order to offer small-arms support in suppression of enemy anti-tank weapons or enemy infantry using anti-tank grenades. Within Soviet doctrine, use of tank desant was only prescribed within the first kilometre of the forward edge of the combat area for only the simplest of tactical mission objectives, since the circumstances would be difficult for the troops engaged.

Realistically, riding on tanks during actual combat is very dangerous. Tank riders are very vulnerable to machine gun and high explosive fire, and the high silhouette of most tanks would draw enemy fire, however, smoke and covering fire may be used to reduce the hazards. Tank riding is mostly used when troops need to move faster than is possible on foot and there is a shortage of motor transport or armoured personnel carriers.

Today, tank desant is considered a wasteful and human-costly improvisation, which, in the opinion of some, was adopted by the Red Army because they failed to appreciate the problem of tank–infantry cooperation. Nowadays, this tactic is very rare (outside of dire emergencies) in well-equipped armed forces, with front-line troops usually riding in armoured personnel carriers or infantry fighting vehicles.

I agree in current terms it's viewed as wasteful, but that is only if you have sufficient APC's or IFV's available. If you don't, I would contend it probably still makes sense in contrast to forcing your infantry to take a long hike carrying full gear through mines, mortars amd artillery before they even reach the contact point. That says nothing about the defensive role those infantry play once dismounted from their tanks in providing suppressive fire against German panzershrek, panzerfaust and light antitank guns, etc. who otherwise would still be walking 5 miles behind those tanks.
 
I agree in current terms it's viewed as wasteful, but that is only if you have sufficient APC's or IFV's available. If you don't, I would contend it probably still makes sense in contrast to forcing your infantry to take a long hike carrying full gear through mines, mortars amd artillery before they even reach the contact point. That says nothing about the defensive role those infantry play once dismounted from their tanks in providing suppressive fire against German panzershrek, panzerfaust and light antitank guns, etc. who otherwise would still be walking 5 miles behind those tanks.
Pretty much every 3rd world country still uses AFV riders to some extent
Syria did back when there was still active fighting.
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This is off topic but I cant think of a better place to ask, is there an app or generator for making Orbats/ToE?
 
Speaking of Soviet tank-infantry co-operation, I recently came across a reference to a classic of 1930s armour design: the Sokolov armoured sled, an unpowered sledge designed to be towed behind tanks as APCs for assaults where infantry assistance was desired. Apparently these were tried in action during the first part of the Winter War; and later Soviet armoured sleds served into at least 1943.

I wonder what the most successful possible design for a towed APC would be? For a nation to have access to enough tanks to justify the project but not enough resources to just build superior APCs would require some pretty strange circumstances...

(This is a 1943 experimental design)
Never heard of that sled! Thanks for posting.
Black Watch - March 1943 Tunisia - note the Section leader with his MAB 38 SMG

Ah yes... North Africa, where "recycle enemy gear" wasn't just a nice extra, it was almost mandatory...
 
Not a military vehicle per se, but a very interesting idea.
Have a wheeled force, and then if the terrain looks like it needs tracks, chuck some tracks on the wheels?
Similar to say putting snow chains on a car.

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It's an old idea. In the late 20s/early 30s there were severall tank models that could run on either wheels or, on bad terrain, rig tracks.
 
It's an old idea. In the late 20s/early 30s there were severall tank models that could run on either wheels or, on bad terrain, rig tracks.
The Christie convertible system as used by the Soviet BT series tanks. The Kegresse system was an earlier system for converting wheeled vehichles into halftracks.
 
And then you have the even weirder swedish prototype, the Landsverk L-30. which had wheels and tracks, the wheels going up or down as needed...

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Recently got the final report on Swiss trials of the Leopard 1A3 against a Pz 68 AA2. At the time it was considered to buy a foreign tank instead of a new batch of Pz 68s due to technical problems and other reasons. The report notes some of the improvements that were desired from/studied for future Pz 68 variants (most were not seen on OTL variants):
  • stabilized sights
- improved stabs
  • 105mm ammo with higher MV or 105 smoothbore gun with APFSDS or integration of HEAT
  • ballistic computer, laser or correlation RF (the latter functions like an autofocus on a camera, and has some neat quirks)
  • passive night sights
  • reduced noise in turret
  • hydrodynamic coupling of ventilator (10% greater performance)
  • increased generator power
  • bigger hatches
  • skirts
  • track with reduced vibrations
The 105mm smoothbore gun was likely the German design, which the Swiss expected to see available for Leopard 1 in 1978.
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Swissified Leopard 1A3 at the trials. Only difference really were the radio, MGs, smoke dischargers, presence of Lyran illuminating grenade launcher, and sight markings.

While asking Andrew Hills (writer of tanks of TOG) for more info on Ricardo's concepts for H type tank diesels, he mentionned a letter from the SVDC (TOG) which had discussed a lot with the French to see what they were doing and what Britain and France could share or do together:

"regarding your french engines: French heavy tank engine projects included: twin 450hp Panhard & Levassor Vk12F4, twin 450hp Clerget engines, and the Renault 12 KGM 550hp for the FCM F1 and ARL Tracteur C tanks being developed at the time or the Aster Diesel (no details sorry). Source: Draft note on request from French Ministry of Munitions for engines, January 1940, Letter from SVDC to Monsieur L’Ingenieur Militaire Principal Lavirotte, dated 19th of January 1940, Letter from Monsieur Lavirotte to SVDC, dated 24th of January 1940"

With the 500hp Talbot V12, the 440-480hp Aster V12 diesel and the 500hp engine from the family ARL wanted to develop, this makes a whopping 6 potential engines in the 450-550hp range in development in France in 1939/40. France would have had no shortage of suitable engines foe mobile 30-40t tanks. Contrast with the UK of 1940having basically only the huge Paxman TP12 for the TOG, unsuitable for medium tanks, and the H engines which were basically exercises from Ricardo as he never got the go ahead. Only the US competed in terms of different options in the war, but quite few were Vees instead of problematic radials while most French engines here are Vees.


Also got the French AFV magazine article on the Somua S40. Things which may be of interest for IRL purposes are the ongoing studies which were not necessarily intended for the S40 and may have come later:
- additional 100L of fuel to extend range by 70km (might have been present on production vehicles because sources indicate either 410L or 510L total capacity). Quite nice as the SOMUA was one of the longer ranged petrol engined tanks of WW2.
- hydraulic controls for the gearbox and steering systems

The late SOMUA S35s and S40s also had a bunch of QoL improvements few people know about, like relocated radiators for better access to internals or revised fuel lines so both fuel tanks can be used all the time (one issue of S35s was that crews did not always know how to use the secondary fuel tank).

The interesting thing I noticed is that the engine of the SOMUA only ran at 2000 rpm at nominal rating, while most WW2 petrol engines (bar the Liberty and B1's older engine) ran at 2500 rpm or more. This explains the rather low output of the engine, which only provides 220hp out of 13.7L while the 12L HL120 does 265/272hp even at the derated setting. There was certainly room to improve the French engine by upping the rpm, which would give a decent power increase to accomodate greater weight on alternate future SOMUA variants (like one with 60mm of armor, which was a likely future requirement for French cavalry tanks).

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Yes, the french had quite a long list of both improvements and new models for 1940/early 41 period. I once even saw a mention for an automatic 60mm AT gun!
 
Yes, the french had quite a long list of both improvements and new models for 1940/early 41 period. I once even saw a mention for an automatic 60mm AT gun!
There were some 60mm fortress guns, so these could have been developed, although Ihave a suspicion tbey were working on a 57mm gun (I was doing some investigations in 2012, so can't remember reliably now).
Meanwhile the 47mm in the Somua backed with the 47mm AT gun would be a similar combination to what the allies faced in Africa in 41. This would be very bad news for any German tanks, as even the tank mounted 47s were effective against all German armour, while the 47mm was nearly as good as the 50mm PaK 38 and provided long range destructive capability.
 
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