What could have convinced the English and French governments to support the Spanish republic during the civil war? I never understood the idea of preventing ithe sovet influence from leaving them the only supporter of the republic.But probably given sthe historical experience until the cold war and beyond I am asking too much.
Alternate Spanish civil war
- Thread starter l-101
- Start date
At that point Nationalism and Fascism was seen as the lesser of 2 evils. Communism was seen to be far more dangerous to capitalist democracy.
I've head radio readings of news articles produced during the Spanish Civil war by English reports. They described the Republican/Communist forces as untidy and undisciplined whereas the Nationalist were more organised as respectable.
There wasn't an overwhelming support for the Republicans over the Nationalists amongst the general population and there was no way the UK or France was going to get involved in a Civil War on the side of the Communists. A case of 'Its not our problem'. Germany wasn't 'officially' helping the Nationalists either and 'officially' there wasn't any German troops in Spain.
I don't know if its possible to separate the Communists from the Democratic faction in the Republican camp. Doing so might give them more legitimacy and help them gain greater support.
I've head radio readings of news articles produced during the Spanish Civil war by English reports. They described the Republican/Communist forces as untidy and undisciplined whereas the Nationalist were more organised as respectable.
There wasn't an overwhelming support for the Republicans over the Nationalists amongst the general population and there was no way the UK or France was going to get involved in a Civil War on the side of the Communists. A case of 'Its not our problem'. Germany wasn't 'officially' helping the Nationalists either and 'officially' there wasn't any German troops in Spain.
I don't know if its possible to separate the Communists from the Democratic faction in the Republican camp. Doing so might give them more legitimacy and help them gain greater support.
Maybe if France went harder left.... But Henri Guillemin shown that it may have been,... hard. The République des Honnêtes Gens and all.
Might the French government have been worried that their actively supporting the Left in Spain hcoudl have trigegred a similar uprising by the Right in France itself? Think that I've seen that suggested somewhere else before now...
Also, don't forget that after years of disarmament but now with rising threats further east, neither the UK nor France had many spare weapons that they could have supplied...
Also, don't forget that after years of disarmament but now with rising threats further east, neither the UK nor France had many spare weapons that they could have supplied...
Guillemin again spoke of while no direct classic coup d'état style conspirationism, there was a rising far-right, and Maréchal Pétain may have been not just a 'willing victim of circumstances', but a figure of that nebulous far-right of the 30s+...
It's possible that some 'hardliners' would have in 'threatening' circumstances planed.. actions.
As much as it was someone else's business the British where rather miffed by the unrestricted Italian submarine warfare which started 12th August 1937. Only patrols by the British and French Fleets with orders to sink any subs encountered deterred the Italians from continuing. A possible POD could be an over enthusiastic Italian sub commander putting a couple of torpedoes into a British warship. This would probably lead to a full naval blockade, limiting foreign intervention by Germany and Italy and armaments from Russia.
Another possibility might be war between Italy and Britain in 1937
Perhaps a good thing for the world as Germany was in no way ready for a war, and after some early reverses British industrial and financial superiority would lead to eventual British victory (with shiny new toys and experience in using them). Benny would probably not survive in power and any illusions of Italian military superiority would have vanished. This would mean that if Germany did continue it's land grabs and Europe was still plunged into war in 1939, the Italians would be very unlikely to intervene. Hence no North African and Mediterranean adventures, vastly improving the allies position and possibly shortening the war.
Another possibility might be war between Italy and Britain in 1937
Perhaps a good thing for the world as Germany was in no way ready for a war, and after some early reverses British industrial and financial superiority would lead to eventual British victory (with shiny new toys and experience in using them). Benny would probably not survive in power and any illusions of Italian military superiority would have vanished. This would mean that if Germany did continue it's land grabs and Europe was still plunged into war in 1939, the Italians would be very unlikely to intervene. Hence no North African and Mediterranean adventures, vastly improving the allies position and possibly shortening the war.Admittedly not a very likely one. However Britain was rather worried by Italian imperial expansion in Africa, especially due to the importance of Suez in Imperial communications. Chuck in unrestricted submarine warfare (never popular with maritime powers, ask the Yanks who used it as an excuse to join WW1) and sinking a/some Royal Navy ships, and who knows? Benny's unlikely to stand down as he's milking the propaganda of Italy the great power and fascism's fight against communism in Spain for all its worth. The British forces in Egypt had deployed to the Libyan border in 1936 when there was heightened tensions between the two powers over Italian land grabs in Africa. In this context of worsening relations in 1937 they would also do the same perhaps alarming Italian forces on the border. Wars have started over less (The war of Jenkin's ear springs to mind
).A different internal political situation in France may be enough. Arms transports started over and over again but was hindered after the marginal right wing groups like AF loudly complained about the warmongering left. The question is how?
Perhaps a larger more violent 1934 leading to a slightly larger victory of the left in 1936 and a slightly more left leaning Radical party making the question of military support to not a toxic question.
Another possible way is to diminish the perceived/real threat of Germany, maybe no remilitarization of Rhineland in 1936 because of [reasons].
Perhaps a larger more violent 1934 leading to a slightly larger victory of the left in 1936 and a slightly more left leaning Radical party making the question of military support to not a toxic question.
Another possible way is to diminish the perceived/real threat of Germany, maybe no remilitarization of Rhineland in 1936 because of [reasons].
This is based on nebulous recollections, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall that the British government was somewhat pro-Nationalist in the war, and allowed them to establish an outpost on Gibraltar.
So you'd have to change that before you can think about a naked support of the Republicans.
So you'd have to change that before you can think about a naked support of the Republicans.
Well, IIRC it was more RN policy than UK policy.
Basically the very thought of the underdecks rising up and slaughtering their betters appears to have triggered all the deepest, darkest nightmares of some of the RN officers in charge.
Don't think it was ever UK (or even official RN) policy, just the guys on the spot.
But changing UK policy really is the key.
When ever the french government leaned towards intervention the UK would shoot it down.
And the french were VERY careful not to risk UK support re Germany over a minor matter like Spain.
Perhaps if the civil war lasted a little longer, or WW2 started slightly earlier, the Allies would have deposed Franco and expelled the Condor Legion et al from Spain during the phoney war.
France could have supported the Republicans if there was some sort of incident involving the Nazis before 1938. Either the Anschluss or the Czechoslovakia thing convinced France to end non-intervention, though by that time -- 1938 -- the Republicans were fucked. France was nervous about being surrounded on three sides by fascist countries, but domestic politics kept the prime minister -- I forget his name -- from doing anything until it was too late.
But on the other hand, they were worried about being isolated by Britain.
Britain was basically supporting the nationalists. There's a book about how -- I think -- MI6 was aiding them.
But on the other hand, they were worried about being isolated by Britain.
Britain was basically supporting the nationalists. There's a book about how -- I think -- MI6 was aiding them.
Last edited:
TFSmith121
Banned
This is a remote possibilty, actually; most of
Spain's warships were British designs, or modifications of British designs, and the Italians attacked Greek ships, including the cruiser Elli, before the outbreak of war in 1940.
An Anglo-Italian war in the mid-to-late 1930s is not going to end well for Italy.
Best,
As much as it was someone else's business the British where rather miffed by the unrestricted Italian submarine warfare which started 12th August 1937. Only patrols by the British and French Fleets with orders to sink any subs encountered deterred the Italians from continuing. A possible POD could be an over enthusiastic Italian sub commander putting a couple of torpedoes into a British warship. This would probably lead to a full naval blockade, limiting foreign intervention by Germany and Italy and armaments from Russia.
Another possibility might be war between Italy and Britain in 1937
Spain's warships were British designs, or modifications of British designs, and the Italians attacked Greek ships, including the cruiser Elli, before the outbreak of war in 1940.
An Anglo-Italian war in the mid-to-late 1930s is not going to end well for Italy.
Best,
As I understand the situation, Britain was less pro-nationalist than anti-communist. If a POD could be found that marginalized the PCE (Spanish Communist Party) and/or increased the importance/power of the center left Izquierda Republicana and the center right Union Republicana parties, then the support of the British Government for the Nationalists would be reduced. Britain would still be very unlikely to intervene, but would be less opposed to French involvement, (but arms shipments only as full military support is very unlikely). Although this could be at the expense of significantly reduced Russian help. Therefore we could give with one hand but take away with the other.
The only way I can see a republican victory is for an earlier start to WW2 with Spain becoming a battlefield in a larger war. Which would be a very interesting time line.
The only way I can see a republican victory is for an earlier start to WW2 with Spain becoming a battlefield in a larger war. Which would be a very interesting time line.