Alternate religious developments in the US

Analytical Engine · Mar 9, 2009

I was wondering (and because I need to know this for my Strangerverse-Britwank TL

) how the development of religious denominations would be like in a still-British USA, since it would, technically, have an established religion (CoE). Would that affect anything (if at all)?

Oh, and by the way, there are no Mormons, but I am considering replacing them with a strict Protestant sect.

Any thoughts?

Mark E. · Mar 9, 2009

Many of the founders of America's strictest evangelical sects came from Anglican ancestry. Many "strict" sects came up in rural areas that would have been somewhat isolated from a state church, if there was one. Another issue: it wasn't until the 1830's when many principles of church-state separation became commonplace, spurred by the mixing of cultures in newly settled areas. I don't think a state church would have stopped the founding of the Mormons, any more than the Anglican church stopped the ascent of the Puritans in 17th century England.

Lord Grattan · Mar 9, 2009

Mark E. said:
Many of the founders of America's strictest evangelical sects came from Anglican ancestry. Many "strict" sects came up in rural areas that would have been somewhat isolated from a state church, if there was one. Another issue: it wasn't until the 1830's when many principles of church-state separation became commonplace, spurred by the mixing of cultures in newly settled areas. I don't think a state church would have stopped the founding of the Mormons, any more than the Anglican church stopped the ascent of the Puritans in 17th century England.

Good points Mark. And yes, a state church wouldn't have stopped the founding of the mormon faith. However, if Joesph Smith Jr. never finds the golden tablets or if he's never born, then Mormonism is butterflied away or at least delayed until someone else finds the tablets. That's probably the route AE will take (though I don't know) rather then a successful & complete suppression of Mormonism.

General Mung Beans · Mar 9, 2009

Anglicanism would be far stronger in North America.

Venusian Si · Mar 10, 2009

General Mung Beans said:
Anglicanism would be far stronger in North America.

Yes, but we could argue that it was State Religion that helped speed up the securalization process...Which would ultimately weaken any American denomination.

Rayleigh · Mar 10, 2009

Bonus points and a gold star if you replace the Mormons with an earlier form of Snake Handlers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_handling)

Matthais Corvinus · Mar 10, 2009

The Puritans were adherents to a state-church, it was just a vision of the Church of England quite different from the one that actually existed. Massachusetts Bay Colony was a republican-theocracy during its early days after all, the Church and the State were the same thing.

The Puritans wanted to purify the Church of England (thus their name) which was different from the founders of Plymouth Plantation, who were separatists.

Anyway. The United States would probably still experience the Second Great Awakening which would probably produce similar sects that we now see.

Glen · Mar 10, 2009

America was a hotbed of patchwork sects before the Revolution. I doubt this would change except as mentioned a stronger Anglican presence.

General Mung Beans · Mar 10, 2009

UnitedStatesofMars13 said:
Yes, but we could argue that it was State Religion that helped speed up the securalization process...Which would ultimately weaken any American denomination.

Yes but there still would be more Anglicans then OTL in North America.

GeneralHouston · Mar 10, 2009

Lord Grattan said:
Good points Mark. And yes, a state church wouldn't have stopped the founding of the mormon faith. However, if Joesph Smith Jr. never finds the golden tablets or if he's never born, then Mormonism is butterflied away or at least delayed until someone else finds the tablets. That's probably the route AE will take (though I don't know) rather then a successful & complete suppression of Mormonism.

Most religious people tend to think of God as being more powerful than the butterfly effect, so I don't know if Smith would necessarily be butterflied away.

That's like saying that "if the Romans never were in Palestine, Christ would have been butterflied away." To any person of faith, that idea is absurd--the power of the Lord is such that He could be incarnated whereever and whenever he chose to.

I think Mormons will think similarly with regards to Joseph Smith. The Mormons were just one of a number of restoration churches, besides, and the Second Great Awakening is going to have a big impact on this, so I think that even if you ignore the potential of Smith's actually being divinely inspired, is not all that unlikely.

Orville_third · Mar 10, 2009

What if the Shakers become more prominent in this new alternate timeline? (Historically, at least one prominent Mormon (Leman Copeley) held Shaker beliefs, and Shakerism was specifically addressed in Doctrine & Convenants 49)

wormyguy · Mar 10, 2009

Could there actually be more Irish Catholic immigration to the US if it were part of the British Empire? If so, perhaps the entire northeast would be majority Catholic.

Ironic, isn't it?

MerryPrankster · Mar 10, 2009

If you want some kind of strict Protestant sect to replace the Mormons, how about a larger, more conservative Church of Christ?

The Churches of Christ, both the yay-for-Christian-unity kind and the if-you're-not-dunked-you're-damned variety, predated Mormonism. I think one faction got swallowed up by Mormonism entirely.

If they claim to be the true, restored New Testament Church and are extremely hostile towards Anglicanism, this could provoke reprisal (the established churches of the individual colonies persecuted Baptists, which is one reason the Baptists were big supporters of the First Amendment back then) and push them westward a la the OTL Mormons.

You could even have them practice polygamy if you'd like--after all, the NT does not *explicitly* prohibit it.

Add that and have increased Irish immigration due to the US being part of the British Empire (bonus points if the Brits encourage/assist it in order to empty Ireland) and you'd have a very interesting Dominion of North America or whatever you'd like to call it.

Keenir · Mar 11, 2009

General Mung Beans said:
Yes but there still would be more Anglicans then OTL in North America.

partly because the Episcopalians would still be part of the Anglicans.

Analytical Engine · Mar 11, 2009

Thanks guys, that's a lot of help.

Keep the ideas coming.

Matthais Corvinus said:
Anyway. The United States would probably still experience the Second Great Awakening

Oh, I'm still going to have it.

which would probably produce similar sects that we now see.

And lot of those started in Britain/Europe. I'm just not sure how much more religious-based imigration is going to take place ITTL...

Maybe they go to Australia instead?

GeneralHouston said:
Most religious people tend to think of God as being more powerful than the butterfly effect, so I don't know if Smith would necessarily be butterflied away.

But I don't belive in God, so that's a moot point...

That's like saying that "if the Romans never were in Palestine, Christ would have been butterflied away." To any person of faith, that idea is absurd--the power of the Lord is such that He could be incarnated whereever and whenever he chose to.

See above.

Biologically speaking, he wouldn't exist, but that wouldn't stop someone else from being called that...

There were plenty of messianic sects around at the time, after all...

I think Mormons will think similarly with regards to Joseph Smith. The Mormons were just one of a number of restoration churches, besides, and the Second Great Awakening is going to have a big impact on this, so I think that even if you ignore the potential of Smith's actually being divinely inspired, is not all that unlikely.

I'm aware that the Curch of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints is a product of the 2nd Great Awakening. Its just that Smith was born quite a long time after the PoD, so he won't exist.

That won't stop other people founding their own churches, of course. But I just don't want to have a cliché Mormon church around when they would be butterflied out...

Oh, and as for earlier snake-handling -

NO!

Lord Grattan · Mar 11, 2009

GeneralHouston said:
Most religious people tend to think of God as being more powerful than the butterfly effect, so I don't know if Smith would necessarily be butterflied away.

That's like saying that "if the Romans never were in Palestine, Christ would have been butterflied away." To any person of faith, that idea is absurd--the power of the Lord is such that He could be incarnated whereever and whenever he chose to.

I think Mormons will think similarly with regards to Joseph Smith. The Mormons were just one of a number of restoration churches, besides, and the Second Great Awakening is going to have a big impact on this, so I think that even if you ignore the potential of Smith's actually being divinely inspired, is not all that unlikely.

Yes, God is more powerful then the butterfly effect. Though, if human history is different in an alternate 1831 perhaps God's timing and activity (presuming the existance and active involvement of God in human history) would be different as well. God may do different things through an alternate II Great Awakening then he did through the one in OTL. Perhaps the golden tablets remain buried; perhaps Jewish Messianism flourishes or Celtic mysticism or who knows what takes root and blossoms in Mormonism's place.

Tyg · Mar 11, 2009

I second the extra-Catholic American east coast idea from Wormyguy. I wouldn't go so far as to say that there'd be lots of Catholic majorities due to Irish migration, but the Catholic community would probably end up a large plurality in many cases.

In your strangerverse TL, the Empire contains large numbers of Latin American Catholics as well, so it's quite imaginable that the Second Great Awakening would involve the much more substantial RC community in certain ways that were impossible OTL.

This does hinge a bit on Irish migration being a large factor in changing the demographic makeup of the American population, so a Happy Shiny Ireland mixes this up rather seriously.

However, as far as Catholics go, there would still be some Irish immigrants (that might be the wrong term for internal Empire migration), and given a British North America, Quebec would also be a source of migrants/settlers, and an unusual witness or participant in the Second Great Awakening.

Lord Grattan · Mar 11, 2009

Here's a 19th Century movement you might consider using:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restoration_Movement

Analytical Engine · Mar 12, 2009

Tyg said:
I second the extra-Catholic American east coast idea from Wormyguy. I wouldn't go so far as to say that there'd be lots of Catholic majorities due to Irish migration, but the Catholic community would probably end up a large plurality in many cases.

Fair enough. I'd say at least New England, Quebec, Louisiana and Maryland would have reasonable Catholic populations.

In your strangerverse TL, the Empire contains large numbers of Latin American Catholics as well, so it's quite imaginable that the Second Great Awakening would involve the much more substantial RC community in certain ways that were impossible OTL.

It's a thought, anyway.

This does hinge a bit on Irish migration being a large factor in changing the demographic makeup of the American population, so a Happy Shiny Ireland mixes this up rather seriously.

Yeah...

The root cause of the Irish migration was that Ireland wasn't a very nice place for the Catholic Irish. However, Ireland maintains its independence in ATL, and is being developed.

Mind you, the industrialisation of Ireland might be just as much of a reason for emigration as being underdeveloped...

However, as far as Catholics go, there would still be some Irish immigrants (that might be the wrong term for internal Empire migration),

I think the word is still correct...

and given a British North America, Quebec would also be a source of migrants/settlers, and an unusual witness or participant in the Second Great Awakening.

Catholic Great Awakening...

Hmm. I don't think anyone's done that before on the board...

Lord Grattan said:
Here's a 19th Century movement you might consider using:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restoration_Movement

Thankee muchly...

I think I will (but I will have to have ATL founders for the ATL movement).

Keep the ideas coming, folks. I won't be writing up this series of posts for a while yet, so I still need more ideas.

GeneralHouston · Mar 12, 2009

Analytical Engine said:
Thanks guys, that's a lot of help.

Biologically speaking, he wouldn't exist, but that wouldn't stop someone else from being called that...

There were plenty of messianic sects around at the time, after all...

Actually considering the fact that Christ was incarnate seperately of normal human reproduction, he would actually be biologically identical. At least the way the Church teaches it...