Alternate History Challenge

Your challenge, with a post 1840 point of divergence, is to create a scenario that allows Mexico to "win" the Mexican-American war.

*Note- This Mexican "victory" does not require the retention of all of Mexico's pre-war territories or the reconquest of Texas, but must result in significant amounts of land that became American in OTL remaining Mexican. (I would suggest lower New Mexico and Southern California as possible options.)
 
Simple.... Buttterfly away Santa Anna, that should do the trick ecept if the Us got serious Mexico is ****** badly, so With no Santa Anna Mexico is willing to sell Cali for the huge amount of Money butterfly away the war and maybe with no Antonio lopez de Santa Anna we have a much better Mexico that may keep Texas....
 
Take away Santa Anna. Despite misconceptions about Mexico, it actually had a pretty decent military in terms of its officer corps. Do I think it can beat the USA? Not at all but they can give them hell with each little inch that they take which would be enough to mitigate their horrendous arse-whupping.
 
Here is a scenario without Santa Anna, or any of his lackeys (Salas or Paredes) in power at any point during the war. And where Mexico manages to keep it together granted I think this )is the best Mexico can do (almost bordering ASB) without the Oregon dispute also exploding into war against Britain at the same time (something that is very unlikely). Anyway enjoy:


Basically Paredes never stages a coup against Herrera. IOTL Herrera, who had previously deposed Santa Anna and exiled him in Cuba, was willing to meet American and British ambassadors to prevent the war or at least get favorable terms favorable to Mexico. Even if he didn't avoid the war the important thing is that he was willing to receive the ambassadors (something no one else did). It was Paredes who then declared war on the US.

So Paredes remains in the north, patrolling the border with a lot more men. Like IOTL Mexican troops at cross the Rio Grande, to the defend the Nueces Strip. Even if Herrera is negotiating there are a lot more Mexican troops present which makes the US somewhat nervous the Texans and Taylors troops stationed in Corpus Christi (north of the Nueces) also grow uneasy.
Like in OTL skirmishes around the Nueces Strip provoke the war. However this time around Polk announces "American blood on American soil" and gets congress to declare war on Mexico before Mexico does. This time Herrera had been in Mexico City receiving the British ambassador and unlike Paredes who hastily declared war. The US is seen as the aggressor.

With more troops in the north Monterey holds. Zachary Talyors "armistice" lasts longer and Alamonte is able to defend Saltillo, and move to El Paso from there. There is actual fighting in El Paso although Kearny's forces defeat the Mexican garrison the loss is large enough that he is unable to continue to California.

Meanwhile Santa Anna makes it out of Cuba with Atocha's help and heads to Veracruz. This time though no one is expecting him and he gets arrested.

Scott begins his invasion of the Mexican heartland via Veracruz. Like IOTL he takes the port and advances towards Puebla. Herrera sacks Farias out of the treasury and puts a conservative in there. The archbishop stays loyal to Herrera and Puebla actually fights (IOTL it declared neutrality the American's where able to camp there as they made their way to Mex City). The battle of Puebla is one of the bloodiest in the war although an American victory it severely stalls Scott's advance. Furthermore American troops are constantly raided by thieves and gangs. One particular gang led by Manuel Dominguez practically cripples most of Scott's army before they reach cuernrvaca. (IOTL Scott's alliance with the bishop allowed him to employ Dominguez and form the Mexican Spy company, without Puebla's neutrality he doesn't have the time to rally the company to his side Dominguez and his men mostly sack and steal from the Americans instead).

In the North Taylor finally takes Monterrey but cornered at La Angostura by where his forces are defeated in a decisive Mexican victory. The defeat seriously lowers American morale while boosting the Mexican. Alamonte's troops amange to retake Monterey later on. Taylor is forced North of the Grande/Bravo.
News reach washington and Polk begins to feel pressure to call for peace, the talks with Britain regarding Oregon are also not going as smoothly as he hoped (there is no chance of war but with the US declaring war first and earlier Britain is more weary or American expansion). In California Fremont & Stockton face an uprising by Flores (without help from central Mexico) and actually prevent Los Angles and more importantly San Diego from being taken. American forces remain in Central California.

Also Polk's term is about to end (all advances in this war have been slower than OTL's even if the war started a few month earlier its been going on for a few extra months). And while Mexican morale is at a high point Herrera begins to feel the pressure of Scott's army at the footsteps of Mexico City, the economic strain of the blockade at Veracruz and discontent from the American occupation in Puebla. Herrera offers terms to the Americans: Straight line from San Fran Bay to the Rio Grande/Bravo from there follow the river to El Paso and link it to the Nueces. The Nueces Strip is to remain Mexican.

The Polk administration outraged by Herrera's terms. After all American forces are in possession of the Nueces Strip and at Mexico's City's door. However Polk grows more and more unpopular as the war goes on and his term draws to an end. Neither the war nor the negotiations advance much in the following moths. Polk promised only one term and the Democrats are soundly defeated in the election by the pro peace Whigs. The next Whig President (take your pick) signs the peace with Herrera's terms but with the Eastern part of the Nueces Strip (east of Laredo) ending up in American hands. Britain mediates the "Treaty of Havana."

Herrera ends up growing a dictator very much ala Santa Anna in the following years. He ends up being deposed when it is clear he has betrayed most of his liberal ideologies but he is still not conservative enough for the conservatives. There is a "mini civil war" (not the bloody War of Reforma of OTL) but his successor Comonfort, a liberal manages to restore the 1824 constitution and actually ends up serving his term in the presidency without being reelected and accepting his defeat to conservative Zuluaga. Zuluaga denounces what is left of the extreme conservatives who want a monarchy bringing a sense of legitimacy to his party. He is reelected but steps off (grudgingly) after two terms when the liberal Lerdo de Tejada is elected.

In the US tensions between north and south continue to rise, the North blames on the South wanting to expand slavery and its failure in a southern president and southern generals. The South feels cheated and is furious at the fact that only Northern territory was won, that they ended with a smaller Texas than what was annexed and that a Northern president arranged an unfair peace. Texas feels cheated since it is smaller than when it was an "free and independent republic" It takes less than a decade (somewhere in the midlate 1850s) for the states in the South to secede and for Texas to follow suit (yeah its more disorganized than OTLs no "confederacy"). The US crumbles into Civil War, longer and bloodier than OTL's (the north still wins but it looses Texas where many southerners end up relocating).

Much later Texas and Mexico go to war. and Mexcio gains the remainder of the Nueces Strip. (Texas has to end up independent otherwise it aint a Mexican "victory")

Quick sketch of map & borders.

Mexmerican War.jpg
 
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Alright Im gonna bump this. I want some comments on the scenario above, I might develop a quick short TL if it gathers interest. But I think this thread is suffering from having a very stale title that doesn't say what it is about.
 
Alright Im gonna bump this. I want some comments on the scenario above, I might develop a quick short TL if it gathers interest. But I think this thread is suffering from having a very stale title that doesn't say what it is about.

Bump! That was a very enjoyable read jycee. I'm especially interested in the political development of Mexico into the latter 19th century (especially with no Porfiriato) as well as the consequences of a more protracted and bloodier US Civil War.
 
Bump! That was a very enjoyable read jycee. I'm especially interested in the political development of Mexico into the latter 19th century (especially with no Porfiriato) as well as the consequences of a more protracted and bloodier US Civil War.

Would agree. Don't know a great deal about the history of Mexico in the period but it all sounds pretty reasonable. Also Mexico seems set on a more stable and successful path.

I notice you also have a better outcome for Canada from the Oregon debate. Presuming this is because a hard pressed America after a tough war with Mexico is feeling less confident of pushing the issue?

Steve
 
Bump! That was a very enjoyable read jycee. I'm especially interested in the political development of Mexico into the latter 19th century (especially with no Porfiriato) as well as the consequences of a more protracted and bloodier US Civil War.

The idea would be that Herrera's dictatorship in the 1850s & 60s replaces the Profrirato, it would certainly be more liberal than Santa Anna's and would end up in a small civil war (certainly smaller than The War of Reforma or La Revolucion) that ends up establishing a multi-party republic. Like in the Porfiriato, Herrera would bring investemnt into Mexico from France & Britain (Herrera actually wanted to lease all of California to Britain so it would side with Mexico iOTL so this might still happen). Although much earlier so by the 1880s/1890s Mexico actually has a legit railroad network and industry plus a small fleet in the Carribean and Pacific (and an alliance with Japan as the other rising power).
Lots of Irish, Italian and Philippino and all types of Catholic immigrants end up all over Mexico, (the latter particularly in california).

The idea is also that the war proves that Mexicans "can govern themselves and work together". A later war against Spain might reinforce that.

The US on the other hand suffers a bad civil war and begins to stagnate in growth it remains mostly focussed on agriculture and very isolationist for the second half of the 1800s. (Whether it is only Texas or more of the South which ends up leaving I'm not sure).


Would agree. Don't know a great deal about the history of Mexico in the period but it all sounds pretty reasonable. Also Mexico seems set on a more stable and successful path.

I notice you also have a better outcome for Canada from the Oregon debate. Presuming this is because a hard pressed America after a tough war with Mexico is feeling less confident of pushing the issue?

Steve

Well that was Britain's "middle size" claim following the Columbia river as a border instead of the full 42nd parallel claim to the Mexican border.

Although with a weaker US Canada might not fully confederate and we could see a Dominion of Columbia in the Pacific.


What happens in the 1900s I'm not sure. But I think I like this sketch quite a bit so I will start the small TL based on it.
 
jycee

That leasing of California sounds odd. Is this in the event of a war with the US or before one? I'm not sure Britain would be that interested as it would prompt tension with the US, especially as the Americans would probably view it as a British plan to cut them off from the Pacific coast. [This is presuming it would be a lengthy lease, say 50+ years. Can't see anything shorter being that worthwhile for Britain. Even a longer one would be of limited attraction to Britain prior to gold being discovered as it has plenty of other lands, many under British control it could invest is as easily.] Do you have any details please?

However does sound like Mexico would be better off without Herrera being deposed and especially if he could get a limited win like that against the US.

Steve

The idea would be that Herrera's dictatorship in the 1850s & 60s replaces the Profrirato, it would certainly be more liberal than Santa Anna's and would end up in a small civil war (certainly smaller than The War of Reforma or La Revolucion) that ends up establishing a multi-party republic. Like in the Porfiriato, Herrera would bring investemnt into Mexico from France & Britain (Herrera actually wanted to lease all of California to Britain so it would side with Mexico iOTL so this might still happen). Although much earlier so by the 1880s/1890s Mexico actually has a legit railroad network and industry plus a small fleet in the Carribean and Pacific (and an alliance with Japan as the other rising power).
Lots of Irish, Italian and Philippino and all types of Catholic immigrants end up all over Mexico, (the latter particularly in california).

The idea is also that the war proves that Mexicans "can govern themselves and work together". A later war against Spain might reinforce that.

The US on the other hand suffers a bad civil war and begins to stagnate in growth it remains mostly focussed on agriculture and very isolationist for the second half of the 1800s. (Whether it is only Texas or more of the South which ends up leaving I'm not sure).




Well that was Britain's "middle size" claim following the Columbia river as a border instead of the full 42nd parallel claim to the Mexican border.

Although with a weaker US Canada might not fully confederate and we could see a Dominion of Columbia in the Pacific.


What happens in the 1900s I'm not sure. But I think I like this sketch quite a bit so I will start the small TL based on it.
 
jycee

That leasing of California sounds odd. Is this in the event of a war with the US or before one? I'm not sure Britain would be that interested as it would prompt tension with the US, especially as the Americans would probably view it as a British plan to cut them off from the Pacific coast. [This is presuming it would be a lengthy lease, say 50+ years. Can't see anything shorter being that worthwhile for Britain. Even a longer one would be of limited attraction to Britain prior to gold being discovered as it has plenty of other lands, many under British control it could invest is as easily.] Do you have any details please?

However does sound like Mexico would be better off without Herrera being deposed and especially if he could get a limited win like that against the US.

Steve

I actually never understood what the lease was actually about; and I agree it sounds odd. I'm using Mexico Mutilado by Francisco Martin Moreno a book I recently read on the war particularly how individual Mexican leaders profited from it. And Robert Merry's A Country of Vast Designs about the Polk Presidency. Both are books I recently read and have available right now. But only Moreno's mentions it.
However iOTL Herrera never met with the British ambassador so it never really existed outside Herrera's mind and writings. However the Britsih ambassador in Mexico at the time, Richard Pakeham, did actually write to London about stopping American expansion in the Pacific and about the richness of California.
My guess is the "lease" was basically Britain get to do with California as they see please for 50+ years in exchange for a military alliance and economic investment in Mexico like during el Porfiriato a lot of investors got big land deals for building a railroad or a mill, etc. Britain gets a huge chunk of land.

In the TL I'll just have Britain investing big in Mexico for a good price of the California gold and a lot of administrative decisions in the region. Which was discovered in 1846, right at the start of the war even though the rush doesn't get going strong till 1948 because of the war. So if the war goes on for longer by the time Britain mediates the "Treaty of Havanna" everyone will be well aware there is gold in Cali.

BTW: I've started the TL based on this scenario. It will be quick, this intro an update or two on the war and an update for Mexico and the US in the rest of the 1800s. If it picks up interest I might work on it further. Check it out here.
 
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