ALT GOVERMENT Changes in USA,RUSSIA,GERMANY,FRANCE

schrammy · Sep 8, 2005

hi i was wondering about how history might have unfolded if some of the major players in WWII would have had diffrent goverments and if WWII would happend at all.

i'll try my best to make it not to impossible how ever some of the things might be verry unlikely, but some times verry unlikely things just happen i'll try to make them as few as possible.

the ATL begins june 1919 the battles between the soviets/red russian armies and the White russian armies in our time line where over wellming red victories in this timeline some how those where overwelming white victories.

what follows is an longer and more bloody russian cival war.

also in this ATL the Russo-Polish War is a big polish victory and they gain more territory than they did in OTL.

the russian cival war ends 2 years later than OTL with a white victory
after this another 3 months of struggle amongst the diffrent white faction leaders Baron Pyotr Nikolayevich Wrangel emearges on top and is crowned the new zsar of russia (all romanov's still get killed by the red's)

here is some info on the man.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyotr_Nikolayevich_Wrangel

the rest of history in this ATL plays out more or less the same untill 1929
when The Great Depression hits the world it is some how (don't know if this is realy possible) even more devestating espesialy to the USA, as an result the communist in the USA gained alote more influance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_USA

and in 1932 by a verry small margin of votes William Z. Foster became new president USA (i am not copletely sure on how the USA goverment works but if the president is a communist and they got a small majority in congres does that make them that make them cummunist or sosialist because there is a considerabele opposition in conngress)

In an speach to congress President William Z. Foster anounces his NO DEAL.
basicaly alote like the NEW DEAL i OTL only diffrences are that it further limits the power of big companies and basicaly clossing the USA market to all none USA products and all the money the USA loaned to other country's is demanded back.

also other reforms are made for better minimum wages and free health care and other stuff like that,slowly but surely turning the USA into an socialist paradise.

in germany The Great Depression has an catastrophic effect that all measures of the wiemar republics goverment fail but even worse that they did in OTL wide spred revolt and civil dis order is the result in 1930 may
the Reichswehr together with what is left of the Freikorps step in and restored order haveing seen several goverments from both left and the conservative goverments fail they don't trust the politicians any more and install an military dictatorship with (wild guese here) Heinz Guderian as dictator.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_Guderian

in this ATL The Great Depression caused also alote of civil disorder and unreset in france and the third republic falls and france becomes facist under arshal Philippe Pétain. (he was the leader of vichy france and i geuse you could call its goverment facist altough maybe not by there own choice)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippe_Pétain.

in ALT United Kingdom the great depression wasn't so great it didn't have such a great impact as it did in OTL.

the rest of the the country's around the world don't have major goverment changes (yes i know thats unrealisticaly but i don't want to make it to over comlicated).

now we have the year 1933 how do you think this alternate timeline contineu's from here?

Straha · Sep 8, 2005

God damn it. What is WITH you people?! Communism could NEVER suceed in America. The most you could get is a hard leftist like Huey Long. Jesus H. Christ why don't you people get that? And besides Huey Long is a more interesting figure than a stalin-analogue taking power in the US. The man had the potential to turn the US social democratic.

schrammy · Sep 8, 2005

could you help me

Straha said:
God damn it. What is WITH you people?! Communism could NEVER suceed in America. The most you could get is a hard leftist like Huey Long. Jesus H. Christ why don't you people get that? And besides Huey Long is a more interesting figure than a stalin-analogue taking power in the US. The man had the potential to turn the US social democratic.

i am sorry i don't know to much about USA politics it was just my attempt of turning the USA into a socialist state not a communist one.

if you have a better idea howto a do this you are verry welcome to help out.

Mayhem · Sep 8, 2005

Kolchak's a more likely leader for non-Soviet Russia, as he had the Czech Legion on his side, the most successful White Army. However, for that to work, you'd have to figure out some way of having them continue to fight after Czechoslovakia gained independance. Wrangel, IIRC, was based in the Baltic region, and ran a suicidal campaign against Petrograd.

Straha · Sep 8, 2005

Ok you just need 2 minor PODs: 1 FDR dies of his polio when he gets it instead of beign cripped and Huey Long wins the election to be govenor in 1924. In 1932 huey Long runs for president and wins....

For Huey Long's policies think FDR but even more thorough. Instead of OTL's social security we'd have a pension system like europe's. National Health care probably becomes a reality.

schrammy · Sep 8, 2005

for the plot

Mayhem said:
Kolchak's a more likely leader for non-Soviet Russia, as he had the Czech Legion on his side, the most successful White Army. However, for that to work, you'd have to figure out some way of having them continue to fight after Czechoslovakia gained independance. Wrangel, IIRC, was based in the Baltic region, and ran a suicidal campaign against Petrograd.

i agree that he might have been more likely leader of none soviets russia but he also had been a supporter of the provisional goverment and after reading the BIO's on the 3 most likely candidates i conclouded that Baron Pyotr Nikolayevich Wrangel was probarbly the only one that would try to bring back the monarchy and that the others would probarly transform russia into either a democrasy or an facist state and i wanted as many diffrent goverments as possible just to make things more interesting.

Lord Douglas · Sep 8, 2005

Wrangel was actually in the South and was thought of as one of the more intelligent White generals. He commanded the last White campaign in the Crimea, and he made some attempts to win over the peasants. But there were still plenty of Romanovs around, and I would think that the most likely monach would be Grand Duke Nicholai, who commanded the Russian armies during the first part of the Great War. Had there been no Romanovs to spare, likely Wrangel would have set up a Regency with himself as Regent than go the full hog and make himself Tsar. Anyway, there were plenty of Romanov relatives among the Royal Houses of Europe.

eschaton · Sep 9, 2005

William Z. Foster would never be the leader of American Communism in a TL without the Soviet Union. The CPUSA in OTL during this era was defined by defering the prospects of a U.S. revolution so as to secure Russia (EG, the stalinist model). I'm sure without Stalin's long shadow, the institution, and who rose to the top, would be totally different.

I still say that Big Bill Haywood was the closest America ever got to a true revolutionary socialist leader. He could have easilly been the U.S. Lenin given the right historical circumstances, though the resulting government would look nothing like Bolshevism of course.

ShawnEndresen · Sep 9, 2005

Communism would work in America as well as it would work anywhere else (take that however you like it). Maybe better, since America starts with enough money and capital development that it can rot for longer before completely collapsing (assuming a Bolshevik model of government). Heck, it's very possible the only reason we're still capitalist is because we fortunately got a freakin' genius for President in 1932.

1932 is too early. The Depression hasn't made enough people that desperate yet. The usual recipe is to remove FDR (perhaps via Zangara), let a loser like Garner be President 33-36, and install your leftist radical then. Long is a tolerable choice; unlike Straha, I think he's a wretched disaster in the making, and just possibly your man. Given a bad Pres in the early 30s, some legitimate Progressive politicians are going to be drifting into "Communist" ranks...

Syphon · Sep 9, 2005

schrammy said:
hi i was wondering about how history might have unfolded if some of the major players in WWII would have had diffrent goverments and if WWII would happend at all.

In an speach to congress President William Z. Foster anounces his NO DEAL.
basicaly alote like the NEW DEAL i OTL only diffrences are that it further limits the power of big companies and basicaly clossing the USA market to all none USA products and all the money the USA loaned to other country's is demanded back.

in ALT United Kingdom the great depression wasn't so great it didn't have such a great impact as it did in OTL.

The US No Deal would have enormous impact on Greay Britain as the US Loaned Hundreds of millions of dollars to GB in WWI.
Calling in all loans would destroy the GB economy as well as a lot of other governments.

To give some scope of US war loans in OTL the Uk is still paying back the WWII war loans today.

ShawnEndresen · Sep 9, 2005

Well, most people are simply going to default. Great Britain is probably the only nation on earth which will think carefully about whether or not to do so. It also may be the only nation with the ability to comply with US demands if it wanted to.

Which ought to help the rest of the world, not hurt it. Although they might miss the sulking USA later.

Tetsu · Sep 9, 2005

Straha said:
God damn it. What is WITH you people?! Communism could NEVER suceed in America. The most you could get is a hard leftist like Huey Long. Jesus H. Christ why don't you people get that? And besides Huey Long is a more interesting figure than a stalin-analogue taking power in the US. The man had the potential to turn the US social democratic.

God damn, dude. Shut the fuck up.

Why don't you put some fucking thought into your posts before you hit "Submit Reply"? Instead of just telling people that they're idiots and that their timeline is impossible [which is ridiculous]. I say this all the damn time, and it seems like no one listens. You're such an abrasive ass- why don't you give us a fucking reason why something could NEVER happen, other than that it's your divine mandate?

The USA has all the things needed in the early 20th century to fall to a Communist regime. It has a very large demographic of urban workers and is a very industrial society. All it would take is for some president, perhaps a succession of them, to make some plan that benefits Big Business over the working man to have many more workers swing hard-left- and leave room for a Communist uprising.

MarkA · Sep 9, 2005

Syphon said:
The US No Deal would have enormous impact on Greay Britain as the US Loaned Hundreds of millions of dollars to GB in WWI.
Calling in all loans would destroy the GB economy as well as a lot of other governments.

To give some scope of US war loans in OTL the Uk is still paying back the WWII war loans today.

The US did call in loans! Indeed, if it had agreed with Britain to defer the payment of War Loans, GB could have persuaded France to defer or abolish reparations from Germany. The effect would be a Great Depression that was less devastating and a Germany not bankrupted and ripe for dictatorship.

Straha · Sep 9, 2005

Look I could see ahard left regime taking over/getting voted in from a worse depression. I don't see an actual bolshevik/stalinist regime taking power in the US. Too much of a tradition of democracy to have an openly dictatorial regime ruling.

Tetsu · Sep 9, 2005

Straha said:
Look I could see ahard left regime taking over/getting voted in from a worse depression. I don't see an actual bolshevik/stalinist regime taking power in the US. Too much of a tradition of democracy to have an openly dictatorial regime ruling.

Yes, well, we're sorry you don't see it. Just because your obviously omnipotent mind didn't see the possibilities doesn't mean you have to be such an ass.

Besides, the whole 'tradition' of democracy could be abandoned pretty quickly, I imagine. If a worker is being mistreated by a large business or corporation, which is in turn being supported by a pro-Big Business government, wouldn't he probably be less likely to trust that government and want to establish a new one that suits his needs?

That sets off the revolution- once it's successful [it could start with the assassination of some top officials in the government], it wouldn't be difficult for some power-hungry madman to climb into a dictatorial role. Besides, it wouldn't even have to be illegal- Hitler is regarded as a ruthless dictator; and he took power the legal way. That's not even what we're talking about here- only you said something about a Stalinist regime.

Straha · Sep 9, 2005

Ok then so what could an american hard left/commie regime be like?

Count Dearborn · Sep 10, 2005

You could also have FDR die at an accident on Oak Island, while trying to excavate the "Money Pit".