Alexander the Great doesn't die and lives to 80s and conquers North India, Carthage, Italy

I don't want to be a Negative Nelly but I have trouble imagining he could hold North India and transPersia even while he was alive. He'd need to leave how many Greek and Macedonian soldiers and commanders in those territories to keep them pacified? You say he could use the Satrap system and just require tribute but that requires him to be able to enforce his demands for tribute, there's no Persian road system he can use in North India to move troops or communicate and if he has to stay there to set one up that's a long time along way from home for a lot of his soldiers. That sounds like a recipe for revolt somewhere along the line, and that's mean spreading his Hellenic troops way too thin.

I have no kind of expertise here so I could be missing a lot, still, I think it's unlikely.
Alexander was already raising phalanxes from the Persians and his other subject peoples.

But yeah, this empire is unwieldy af and is gonna collapse the second Alexander croaks, even if he somehow manages to conquer this far.

As fun as Alexandria-on-the-Tiber would be.
 

Deleted member 4539

The religious and cultural aspects seem really interesting to me, if we go with the original premise; an extra 50 years is long enough for there to be a generation of priests setting up cults from the Ganges to the Atlantic and a generation of people to grow up practicing their religion under the eyes of the living God King. Would you end up with Alexandrism being the basis for essentially all western religion in this world? And what would it look like?
 
Oh for fuck's sake.
Greek hoplites worked great in uneven terrain; have you looked at Greece? It's even more mountainous than Italy. Pike phalanxes struggled on uneven ground at times, but not enough to keep them from subjugating all Greece and then most of the Achaemenid empire.

To be clear, I'm not saying hoplites were unable to operate effectively in uneven terrain. Obviously there's a lot of evidence that they were very capable of operating effectively in all terrains. But they weren't designed for that, and it certainly opened up vulnerabilities that were particularly noticable without skilled commanders leading them (and later successor armies were probably more open to these vulnerabilities than the phalanx of Phillip and Alexander). And regardless, they were definitely not more effective at it than Roman armies.

Also re: the pike phalanx, the pike phalanx of Alexander and Phillip were both less rigid than those of their successors and more importantly less central to an Alexandrian army. The battles of Phillip and Alexander were more often than not not decided by the phalanx (which also had a large supporting contingent of lighter troops and also more flexible troops), but by the cavalry. That was the particular advantage they had over the other Greek states.
 
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Alexander was already raising phalanxes from the Persians and his other subject peoples.

But quality of these troops and those of his successors had been, seemingly, going down causing a need of the more complex army compositions with the heavier reliance upon the elephants (and even the chariots) and not always good coordination among the branches.


But yeah, this empire is unwieldy af and is gonna collapse the second Alexander croaks, even if he somehow manages to conquer this far.

Maybe not that fast but it does look untenable and the Persian system had its limits of applicability as was demonstrated by the Macedonian success.

As fun as Alexandria-on-the-Tiber would be.
Why would he go there is a separate issue: Persia (with Egypt) and India made sense for his troops: it was known that they are rich and a lot of a loot was expected. But “I seek to lead you into the most fertile plains in the world. Rich provinces, great cities will be in your power. There you will find honor, glory, and riches” applicable to Italy of IV century BC would sound a little bit hollow. 😂
 

Deleted member 4539

But quality of these troops and those of his successors had been, seemingly, going down causing a need of the more complex army compositions with the heavier reliance upon the elephants (and even the chariots) and not always good coordination among the branche

Why would he go there is a separate issue: Persia (with Egypt) and India made sense for his troops: it was known that they are rich and a lot of a loot was expected. But “I seek to lead you into the most fertile plains in the world. Rich provinces, great cities will be in your power. There you will find honor, glory, and riches” applicable to Italy of IV century BC would sound a little bit hollow. 😂
Honestly I've always thought this when I hear people asking 'what if Alexander conquered the West?' I've rarely seen an explanation as to what he'd want it for.
 
To be clear, I'm not saying hoplites were unable to operate effectively in uneven terrain. Obviously there's a lot of evidence that they were very capable of operating effectively in all terrains. But they weren't designed for that, and it certainly opened up vulnerabilities that were particularly noticable without skilled commanders leading them (and later successor armies were probably more open to these vulnerabilities than the phalanx of Phillip and Alexander). And regardless, they were definitely not more effective at it than Roman armies.
Phalanx of Philip and Alexander had been only a part of their armies. For the decisive strike they had been using a well-disciplined cavalry backed up by the elite units of hypaspists. It probably telling that Alexander’s successors tended to have more complex army structures which included pretty much everything available from the elephants to chariots but not always a good coordination of these components on a battlefield.
 
I mean even if it is ASB it is quite interesting to think how all these cultures will mix together in specific areas and identifying each other a couple of centuries later x'D.

Just think about Greece, Persia and India connected to each other culturally due to been under one empire centuries ago.
 
Honestly I've always thought this when I hear people asking 'what if Alexander conquered the West?' I've rarely seen an explanation as to what he'd want it for.
The “usual” reasons for the conquests were either expectation to get some economic profit or to secure what you already have by moving your borders further (as in Karel Čapek’s short novel on Alexander’s conquests). Taking into an account a political and economic condition on the Italian Peninsula of that period and involved geography it is more clear that none of these considerations apply.
Conquest for the sake of conquest is, of course, a possibility but probably not a very convincing. Much more probable would be for him to stay in Babylon working on consolidation of his empire and fighting off potential attacks on its borders. This would be a full time occupation.
 
To be clear, I'm not saying hoplites were unable to operate effectively in uneven terrain. Obviously there's a lot of evidence that they were very capable of operating effectively in all terrains. But they weren't designed for that, and it certainly opened up vulnerabilities that were particularly noticable without skilled commanders leading them (and later successor armies were probably more open to these vulnerabilities than the phalanx of Phillip and Alexander). And regardless, they were definitely not more effective at it than Roman armies.

Also re: the pike phalanx, the pike phalanx of Alexander and Phillip were both less rigid than those of their successors and more importantly less central to an Alexandrian army. The battles of Phillip and Alexander were more often than not not decided by the phalanx (which also had a large supporting contingent of lighter troops and also more flexible troops), but by the cavalry. That was the particular advantage they had over the other Greek states.
No ancient militia was ever 'designed' for anything; the Samnite fighting style organically arose from a combination of factors. Insofar as terrain was a factor in its emergence, basically identical terrain played a similarly indeterminate role in the emergence of the Classical hoplite phalanx. Nor is the role of terrain in the Roman adoption of this fighting style at all clear. Moreover, the advantages we're discussing relate almost entirely to attacking in broken terrain; the hoplite and pike phalanxes were both fine at defending hilly positions, which is what's under discussion here.

The advantages of defensive lines in mountains [as opposed to rivers] are the scarcity of provisions in sparsely populated areas and the physical effort taken to cross them [especially with small corps occupying the passes, however they are armed or trained]. The disadvantages are the difficulty of lateral communications from pass to pass and the lack of population to support a large army.

River lines offer good lateral communications and logistical bases for stronger forces than mountainous areas can directly support, but they're much less arduous for enemies to cross.

As an aside, I also don't think it's been proved that army composition changed all that much under the Successors, or that what change their was meaningfully hindered them; it's certainly asserted a lot, but the pike phalanx was only a portion of the armies of e.g. Antiochos III at Magnesia [a minority in this case] or Pyrrhos. At Magnesia Antiochos had no fewer than 12,000 horse, providing an even greater superiority over the Romans than he enjoyed in foot; he broke the back of Egyptian power at Panium using his cataphract cavalry.
 
Maybe not that fast but it does look untenable and the Persian system had its limits of applicability as was demonstrated by the Macedonian success.
I think it was less the problem of the satrapy system and more of the problem of two Shahanshahs getting assassinated in a row. By that eunuch who was said to be so beautiful Alexander kissed, no less.
 
Phalanx of Philip and Alexander had been only a part of their armies. For the decisive strike they had been using a well-disciplined cavalry backed up by the elite units of hypaspists. It probably telling that Alexander’s successors tended to have more complex army structures which included pretty much everything available from the elephants to chariots but not always a good coordination of these components on a battlefield.
Yes:
Also re: the pike phalanx, the pike phalanx of Alexander and Phillip were both less rigid than those of their successors and more importantly less central to an Alexandrian army. The battles of Phillip and Alexander were more often than not not decided by the phalanx (which also had a large supporting contingent of lighter troops and also more flexible troops), but by the cavalry. That was the particular advantage they had over the other Greek states.
No ancient militia was ever 'designed' for anything; the Samnite fighting style organically arose from a combination of factors. Insofar as terrain was a factor in its emergence, basically identical terrain played a similarly indeterminate role in the emergence of the Classical hoplite phalanx. Nor is the role of terrain in the Roman adoption of this fighting style at all clear. Moreover, the advantages we're discussing relate almost entirely to attacking in broken terrain; the hoplite and pike phalanxes were both fine at defending hilly positions, which is what's under discussion here.

The advantages of defensive lines in mountains [as opposed to rivers] are the scarcity of provisions in sparsely populated areas and the physical effort taken to cross them [especially with small corps occupying the passes, however they are armed or trained]. The disadvantages are the difficulty of lateral communications from pass to pass and the lack of population to support a large army.

River lines offer good lateral communications and logistical bases for stronger forces than mountainous areas can directly support, but they're much less arduous for enemies to cross.

As an aside, I also don't think it's been proved that army composition changed all that much under the Successors, or that what change their was meaningfully hindered them; it's certainly asserted a lot, but the pike phalanx was only a portion of the armies of e.g. Antiochos III at Magnesia [a minority in this case] or Pyrrhos. At Magnesia Antiochos had no fewer than 12,000 horse, providing an even greater superiority over the Romans than he enjoyed in foot; he broke the back of Egyptian power at Panium using his cataphract cavalry.
I don't really disagree with any of this. Anyway, I was responding to a post that said the Greek armies were specifically created for mountain warfare. It was a very oversimplified (and incorrect) post, and I gave a very oversimplified answer.
 
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The religious and cultural aspects seem really interesting to me, if we go with the original premise; an extra 50 years is long enough for there to be a generation of priests setting up cults from the Ganges to the Atlantic and a generation of people to grow up practicing their religion under the eyes of the living God King. Would you end up with Alexandrism being the basis for essentially all western religion in this world? And what would it look like?

A Hellenistic India (or at least North India) would be interesting to consider...
 
The other thing is that there is no guarantee that Alexander could conquer the West. He happened to invade Persia at a very opportune moment, given how it had just come out of a civil conflict, and Darius was desperately trying to placate rebellious satraps (hell, he was eventually murdered by one). The Macedonians may find far more resilient states in the West (Carthage, Gallic Kingdoms, etc.) that will prove harder nuts to crack, and have unfamiliar and unwelcoming terrain for conventional Hellenic tactics.

Secondly, there's nothing keeping Alexander the Great from being killed by a lucky shot by a local Carthaginian nobody in the heat of battle, or nailed with a javelin by some Gaul in the right place at the right time.
 
Secondly, there's nothing keeping Alexander the Great from being killed by a lucky shot by a local Carthaginian nobody in the heat of battle, or nailed with a javelin by some Gaul in the right place at the right time.
Adding to the above: Or even something less glamorous, like getting a nasty case of dysentery or malaria.

I think Alexander has already (as of his OTL death) conquered more than can feasibly be held together even if he focuses on trying, but Alexander continuing to try to conquer more sounds like it will be very messy even without death by unromantic illness or unfortunate-but-unsurprising injury cutting him down short of eighty.
 
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Man, what an end. Conquers the East, only to die of malaria in some God-forsaken Illyrian swamp.

It would be either poetic justice or cruel irony, depending on your view of the man, wouldn't it?

One thing I do wonder is how loyal his Persian troops would be with the Macedonians and Greeks increasingly unenthused about even more campaigning. A mutiny in those conditions might be too much to manage without beating a retreat, even if just in that "what troops are willing to stop the mutineers?"
 
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