AHQ: Protestantism in an Angevin Realm?

Supposing that the protestant reformation still happens like in OTL around the same time in a Timeline where the Plantagenets formed an Anglo-French Union, what would the outcome be? May the Empire collapse or would it stay united, and would it/it's successor states follow the Pope or Martin luther/his TTL equivalent?
 
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Supposing that the protestant reformation still happens like in OTL around the same time in a Timeline where the Plantagenets formed an Anglo-French Union, what would the outcome be? May the Empire collapse or would it stay united, and would it/it's successor states follow the Pope or Martin luther/his TTL equivalent?


Protestantism could still spread ( if it develops like OTL, which is very hard to see ) but I don't see the king of this union becoming Protestant, as he will have the capabilities to actively influence the papacy ( like OTL France but on a larger scale, given that it also combines the resources of England ) so I see the kingdom remaining mostly Catholic, with pockets of Protestantism ( very politically active, since I imagine it is made up of rich bourgeois and nobles ) opposing the centralization of the state, indeed it is likely that there will be many pontiffs over the centuries who come from this kingdom
 
May the Empire collapse or would it stay united, and would it/it's successor states follow the Pope or Martin luther/his TTL equivalent?
If the French dynasty of England wins the war against the Valois dynasty we will have a much stronger France, with English culture being gallicized. I would say that the country would remain Catholic, but an important minority Protestant. Regarding the independence of England in relation to the phrase, it is difficult to happen. The idea of France and England as we have today was not formed, TTL England will be another part of France with a more different and unique culture like Occitania. In relation to religious wars, this will depend on the king at the time. If he is competent, we probably won't have a religious war; if he isn't, a religious war is possible.
 
Protestantism could still spread ( if it develops like OTL, which is very hard to see ) but I don't see the king of this union becoming Protestant, as he will have the capabilities to actively influence the papacy ( like OTL France but on a larger scale, given that it also combines the resources of England ) so I see the kingdom remaining mostly Catholic, with pockets of Protestantism ( very politically active, since I imagine it is made up of rich bourgeois and nobles ) opposing the centralization of the state, indeed it is likely that there will be many pontiffs over the centuries who come from this kingdom
A united super realm of England and France would no doubt boost the Catholic Church. If anything we might not see a reformation, or at least it would be crushed, or significantly neutered to the point of it being a relatively short-lived regional and isolated heretical movement like Bogomilism in Bosnia.
 
A united super realm of England and France would no doubt boost the Catholic Church. If anything we might not see a reformation, or at least it would be crushed, or significantly neutered to the point of it being a relatively short-lived regional and isolated heretical movement like Bogomilism in Bosnia.


exactly, that is probably the easiest option to happen, or it could end up like the Hussites, that is, become important enough to worry Rome a little but essentially remain confined to a certain region, thus becoming a characteristic of its Inhabitants as time passes ( which I hardly see coming from this super France ) , After all it would be the richest and most powerful kingdom on the continent, so it can easily intervene to stop the Reformation ( indeed I would venture more, it is probable that its strength combined with the ability to influence Rome would be used as an excuse by the other minor European kingdoms to encourage a ATL Reform in order to free itself from its hegemony ( even in the soft power version )
 
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if we assume that somehow the Plantagenets form an unusually secure, unusually stable, unusually strong united dual monarchy, I imagine it depends a great deal on what its monarchs want to do - but even under the best possible conditions, I rather imagine they're going to be spread a little thinner than "crushingly dominant over Europe" in the early 16th century when it comes to stomping out the Reformation or more overwhelming influence on the Papacy than OTL France.

And even apart from the general image, a strong king in 1517 is a rather different situation than a weak one here - it's the kind of detail that will influence what any given one of the possible scenarios "actually" happens.
 
And even apart from the general image, a strong king in 1517 is a rather different situation than a weak one here - it's the kind of detail that will influence what any given one of the possible scenarios "actually" happens.
2 scenarios: Strong or weak King.
 
2 scenarios: Strong or weak King.

Strong king or weak king, king attracted to reformist teachings or not, king with brothers who might take advantage of any opportunity to fight him over the realm or not (not directly related to "strong or weak" - Henry VI of England didn't have any full brothers OTL, after all, and his half-brothers had no claim to England)...
 
A united super realm of England and France would no doubt boost the Catholic Church. If anything we might not see a reformation, or at least it would be crushed, or significantly neutered to the point of it being a relatively short-lived regional and isolated heretical movement like Bogomilism in Bosnia.
I don't see why a "super realm" would be any more powerful than other late medieval and early modern dynastic monstrosities like the empire of Charles V and his supposed 'universal monarchy'. Of course the fractiousness of the Holy Roman Empire was somewhat unique, but this monarch is still going to have to try and traverse and govern a vast area running north to south and try and fulfill the demands of both continental and insular elites which are diametrically opposed in serious ways. Realms like that in those days mostly resulted in exhausted monarchs constantly running around their realm trying to solve problems with discontented notables either with the pen or the sword and getting into brushfire spats in half a dozen locations rather than just being able to concentrate force wherever they wished. Not that they were always weak, but "super realm" seems to be overselling the strength of a union like this at this day and age. I'm skeptical that some combination of crowns creates an überpowerful state that doesn't face the crippling material limits of trying to rule and hold together vast areas under the conditions of the time.

Also hard to see a "crushed reformation" as a downstream result of just another large feudal empire arising considering that the Reformation spread far and wide not through massive hosts of men but through printed pieces of paper and the intercontinental exchange of ideas influenced by a rising class of bourgeois city dwellers. The Reformation remaining 'short-lived, regional and isolated' doesn't seem plausible given the PoD considering the advent of the printing press and the development of a pan-European print culture in which private interpretation and reinterpretation of texts became possible in a way they never had before. As the quip goes, the increase in Bibles created the Reformation. The Anglo-French Union isn't changing the printing press and it certainly isn't going to just wave away the increasingly unstable purgatory industry in northern Europe and the intensifying trade networks (and thus intellectual networks) that facilitated the spread of Reformation ideas. This isn't even mentioning things like the expansion of the Ottoman Turk that contributed to the explosion of anxiety that made the Reformation. Not sure how this "super realm" really changes any of this, especially considering a continental war didn't even begin between Catholics and Protestants until long after Protestantism had been deeply implanted and widely disseminated in areas that aren't even really within the reach of this alt-kingdom.
 
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If the French dynasty of England wins the war against the Valois dynasty we will have a much stronger France, with English culture being gallicized. I would say that the country would remain Catholic, but an important minority Protestant. Regarding the independence of England in relation to the phrase, it is difficult to happen. The idea of France and England as we have today was not formed, TTL England will be another part of France with a more different and unique culture like Occitania. In relation to religious wars, this will depend on the king at the time. If he is competent, we probably won't have a religious war; if he isn't, a religious war is possible.
English comes from a separate language family, unlike Occitan, and England also has a long history as an independent state. French will probably spread into urban areas and the nobility (who spoke French in medieval England IIRC), but your average peasant will still probably speak English. French could only fully overtake English in England once industrialization kicks in IMO, and even then English won't by any means go extinct.
 
Occitania doesn't have a sea separating it from France, though.
Yes, that's true, but the other side of the nobility is also French. And the journey is not very long, between 1 and 3 days in the 16th century. Over time the speed of the journey will increase. It is not a big barrier like the distance between Korea and Japan is.
English comes from a separate language family, unlike Occitan,
And it is estimated that approximately 30% to 45% of modern English vocabulary is derived from French. In another century or two it will be a mostly French language with a minority of the local language (somewhere between 30% to 40%) And with each passing generation it will become more Gallicized.
and England also has a long history as an independent state.
England was unified in the 10th century and at the beginning of the 11th century it was conquered by the Normans, which placed the country in the French orbit. England only truly became independent after losing the 100 Years War. Before that, it was basically backward for part of the French nobility (aka the normans).
but your average peasant will still probably speak English.
Yep, those who will speak French will be the nobles, the bourgeoisie, artists/music,scientists, the clergy,etc. Basically the people who matters. Over time and with the economic rise of people, the peasant population will abandon English (or the local dialect) and migrate to French TTL.
French could only fully overtake English in England once industrialization kicks in IMO, and even then English won't by any means go extinct.
I see it as very likely that English is an endangered language at least of not absorved in to the french group. Irish and Scottish languages are basically gone, local French dialects are basically gone. The government's language will be French, which means that other languages will not be used. In the long run, if languages are not used, they die. Maybe ITTL some kids have English in class as a way to maintain the language. Something similar to Ireland.
 
What would happen if this Angevin Union had American colonies? How would the reformation affect them?
Where, because you have an entire continent at your disposal. From Argentina and Brazil to Canada. The Huguenots tried to colonize some places in the OTL. But they failed. If there is intense persecution of Protestants. I think something similar could happen.
 
Talking about "the government" as if a personal union means England and France merge together feels like the sort of thing that will ruffle feathers on both sides of the channel at best for a long time after (picking the earliest date) Edward III. And that assumes people even go along with it at all.
 
Talking about "the government" as if a personal union means England and France merge together feels like the sort of thing that will ruffle feathers on both sides of the channel at best for a long time after (picking the earliest date) Edward III.
To some extent there will be ruffle feathers on both sides. But the idea of France and England was not yet completely created as we see it today. it is not strange to assume that the government is capable of governing both. Although probably "both" kingdoms will be under the French crown. So it would be another single kingdom that has lands on the continent and in Great Britain.
 
To some extent there will be ruffle feathers on both sides. But the idea of France and England was not yet completely created as we see it today. it is not strange to assume that the government is capable of governing both. Although probably "both" kingdoms will be under the French crown. So it would be another single kingdom that has lands on the continent and in Great Britain.

With the state of communications and transport at the time, governing both from either London or Paris is going to be a challenge.

And I have the feeling that if such a personal union ends up lasting, England is going to become the Ireland to France's England.
 
With the state of communications and transport at the time, governing both from either London or Paris is going to be a challenge. And I have the feeling that if such a personal union ends up lasting, England is going to become the Ireland to France's England.
It will be in Paris, as a whole the situation is not so similar to Ireland (despite having certain similarities). Ireland was conquered by England and used as a colony. What happens to England is what happens when a much smaller country conquers a much larger country. The country is swallowed by the larger one and ends up being assimilated by it. France is more populous, richer, culturally important and seen as the peak of civilization by Normans. If we take the population of England and France in the 15th century we have England with 2.1 million and France with 15 million. England has a terrible situation. The nobility of the two kingdoms will mix even more, creating a nobility that sees the two kingdoms as one. I think it's difficult for England to gain its independence in this situation.
 
Yes, that's true, but the other side of the nobility is also French. And the journey is not very long, between 1 and 3 days in the 16th century. Over time the speed of the journey will increase. It is not a big barrier like the distance between Korea and Japan is.

And it is estimated that approximately 30% to 45% of modern English vocabulary is derived from French. In another century or two it will be a mostly French language with a minority of the local language (somewhere between 30% to 40%) And with each passing generation it will become more Gallicized.

England was unified in the 10th century and at the beginning of the 11th century it was conquered by the Normans, which placed the country in the French orbit. England only truly became independent after losing the 100 Years War. Before that, it was basically backward for part of the French nobility (aka the normans).

Yep, those who will speak French will be the nobles, the bourgeoisie, artists/music,scientists, the clergy,etc. Basically the people who matters. Over time and with the economic rise of people, the peasant population will abandon English (or the local dialect) and migrate to French TTL.

I see it as very likely that English is an endangered language at least of not absorved in to the french group. Irish and Scottish languages are basically gone, local French dialects are basically gone. The government's language will be French, which means that other languages will not be used. In the long run, if languages are not used, they die. Maybe ITTL some kids have English in class as a way to maintain the language. Something similar to Ireland.
But the morpphology is Germanic and the Germanic lexemes are high on the frequency list.
 
And I have the feeling that if such a personal union ends up lasting, England is going to become the Ireland to France's England.

A better analogy is probably the Scotland to Frances England-

Otl- Scottish dynasty took power in London, abandoned Scots which had been a language of court and people for English, and the Scottish nobility and parliament supported the eventual union and benefited from the later power of the British state.
 
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