AHQ: Ducals For Napoleon's Marshals?

[Rizcession]

So it's well known that Napoleon's Marshal Joachim Murat was awarded the Kingdom of Naples when Napoleon's oldest brother, Joseph, was sent to Spain. I beleive Napoleon's Marshal and rival Davout might also have been a candidate for Poland should it be elevated to a Kingdom, though this is unclear to me. This leads me to ask, what are some Duchies and Kingdoms that could have also gone to Napoleon's other Marshals if the opportunity presented itself? In this case, I worry less about how such opportunities present themselves, and am more curious about who would he suited to go where. Prussia, Austria, Portugal, and parts of Russia are probably the parts most likely to get chopped up and given to Marshals (assuming Napoleon can somehow not lose all the territory later on), but if you know of other opportunities, I'd be happy to hear them.

 

[GunterW]

Austria is the natural candidate, if Napoleon gave Austria the same treatment he gave to Prussia, then maybe Bohemia and Hungary can be separated, leaving Austria proper to the Hapsburgs, and these two new kingdoms to whoever he chooses.

Silesia can be detached from Prussia, and if he goes radical, he can banish the Hohenzollerns to Konigsberg permanently and give Brandenburg to someone else.

A part of Portugal was supposed to go to Godoy, this “Kingdom of the Algarves” doesn’t look very viable, Portugal is small and poor as it is, I can’t imagine any French Marshall consider having a piece of that to be a great prize.

Spain can be partitioned to at least Castille & Leon, Aragon and perhaps Navarre, however Joseph wouldn’t want to receive a mutilated kingdom, so either he stays in Naples and he gives Murat a piece of Spain or finds someone else for Castille and Aragon.

Assuming he gets to conquer Great Britain (unlikely), then Scotland can be detached from the UK.

If he campaigns against the Ottoman Empire and manages to kick them out of the Balkans, then Serbia, Greece, Romania and Bulgaria would be available.

Lastly, I am not sure about how to partition Russia, I’d think Poland would grow at their expense, but not sure if a Baltic or Ukrainian state is on the cards at this time.

I think Austria being partioned would be the most likely, you can get at least 2 decent size regional powers. If Napoleon didn’t do that in OTL is because I think he thought, he could ally with Austria or at least keep a balance of power to counter Russia and Prussia. He even married a daughter of the Austrian Emperor, not that it mattered in the long term. In hindsight, he should have dissolved the multi-ethnic Austrian Empire when he had the chance, they would have backstabbed him anyway.

 

[Diego]

I think Austria being partioned would be the most likely, you can get at least 2 decent size regional powers. If Napoleon didn’t do that in OTL is because I think he thought, he could ally with Austria or at least keep a balance of power to counter Russia and Prussia. He even married a daughter of the Austrian Emperor, not that it mattered in the long term. In hindsight, he should have dissolved the multi-ethnic Austrian Empire when he had the chance, they would have backstabbed him anyway

Austria tried to save Napoleon as much as possible, it was his own fault that he didn't accept any offer. Also those new satelites need massive French garrisons to stay minimally loyal and will be a drain of manpower and resources.

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

I beleive Napoleon's Marshal and rival Davout

Rival.
More like best and most loyal.

 

[GunterW]

Austria tried to save Napoleon as much as possible, it was his own fault that he didn't accept any offer. Also those new satelites need massive French garrisons to stay minimally loyal and will be a drain of manpower and resources.

From a French POV, Austria never cared for French interests, the only reason they mediated was because they wanted France contained, so that it could balance out Russian and Prussian influence in Central Europe.

They half-heartedly joined Napoleon’s Russian campaign and backstabbed them later, when it was clear they wouldn’t act in a way that suited Austrian interests.

Napoleon would have gained more with an independent kingdom of Bohemia and Hungary, receiving perhaps, a similar level of support which he got from Poland and Saxony (which is not immaterial), than this two-faced great power that never did much to advance Napoleon’s plans. Also, it removes Austria as a source of concern, the archduchy itself is no more dangerous than Bavaria, I’d say it ranks at the level of Württemberg in resources and military power.

 

[Polish Eagle]

Lastly, I am not sure about how to partition Russia, I’d think Poland would grow at their expense, but not sure if a Baltic or Ukrainian state is on the cards at this time.

I'm not sure either, particularly in the latter, since doing so would probably alienate a good many Polish would-be supporters of Napoleon in the right-bank area of what's now Ukraine. It's worth noting that roughly 1/5 of the entire invasion army in 1812 was from the Duchy of Warsaw. The Polish supporters of Napoleon were hopeful that the restored Polish state would reach the 1772 borders.

With that said, Poland itself is a possible Marshal State, since Frederick Augustus only had a daughter, and she was a candidate for the Polish throne IOTL. Wikipedia even names Poniatowski as a potential spouse for her (which would, in a Napoleonic Victory scenario, have made him King of Poland upon Frederick Augustus's death). But, if Poniatowski himself is killed under different circumstances, another Marshal might do.

Further afield in the Baltic, we might consider a revived Duchy of Livonia as another candidate Marshal state--pry the Baltic Germans and Balts out from under Tsarist rule and make sure St. Petersburg is bottled up.

Returning to Ukraine for a moment...pity that the Zaporozhian Sich had been dissolved. Appointing a Marshal as Hetman and giving him the Black Sea coast of Ukraine and the left bank of the Dnipro would both further dismember the Tsarist state and avoid stepping on Polish toes (though I'm not sure how plausible that is--the OTL Cossacks who went to the Ottoman Empire had a split and many went back to the Tsar, but some held out for a few decades more; would they accept a Napoleonic Marshal as their new Hetman, along with a return to Ukraine?).

 

[Nivek]

The Napoleonic Diadochi. What would it take?

Lately I've been toying with this (work in progress): It's in very early stages; the thing is, I'm not an expert on the inner workings of the Napoleonic Empire and I haven't read the biographies of the great Marshals. I have, though, read extensively about the Diadochi and their time. I got...

www.alternatehistory.com

 

[tus3]

Napoleon would have gained more with an independent kingdom of Bohemia and Hungary

I vaguely remember that in previous discussions it had been mentioned that the largest problem with that would be that the locals (or at least the important ones) would not prefer French marshals above the Habsburgs...

So I suspect your earlier proposal of Napoleon kicking the Ottomans out of the Balkans and then installing marshals as monarchs there is more plausible.
Maybe Napoleon could also involve the Austrians and Russians in this partition of the Ottoman Empire.

 

[Diego]

From a French POV, Austria never cared for French interests, the only reason they mediated was because they wanted France contained, so that it could balance out Russian and Prussian influence in Central Europe.

They half-heartedly joined Napoleon’s Russian campaign and backstabbed them later, when it was clear they wouldn’t act in a way that suited Austrian interests.

Napoleon would have gained more with an independent kingdom of Bohemia and Hungary, receiving perhaps, a similar level of support which he got from Poland and Saxony (which is not immaterial), than this two-faced great power that never did much to advance Napoleon’s plans. Also, it removes Austria as a source of concern, the archduchy itself is no more dangerous than Bavaria, I’d say it ranks at the level of Württemberg in resources and military power.

French interests are only above everything else for France, no nation put the interest of others above theirs, though they can make compromises most of the time. It happens that Saxon and Polish interests aligned with Napoleon for some time, but when those interests diverged they all started doing their things. Saxony "betrayed" Napoleon mid battle, and they wanted to ditch him much earlier, but they didn't do it only because they were occupied by France, Bavaria ditched him in time to ambush Napoleon in its retreat from Germany, Poland didn't ditch Napoleon only because they were not given any chance. All those "faithful" allies of Napoleon had one or two characteristics in common, that being the fact that they were receiving territories from Napoleon or they were under occupation, or both. The other powers all wanted France destroyed or at least on their knees, the fact that Austria wanted France to continue being a player makes it the only possible ally among other great powers.

Anyway, your plan to divide Austria would be a disaster for France, first you get wrong when you think that Napoleon would create an independent Hungary, first because there is no independence movement that he could rely on like in Poland, he would need to create something fromk zero, if he decided to divide Austria, Bohemia and Hungary he would probably continue giving parts of Austria to Bavaria, create a puppet in Bohemia, leave the Habsburgs in Hungary and give Galicia to Poland, he could even just kick the Habsburgs from Hungary too if he becomes dumb enough. What is the result? Bohemia doesn't have a movement trying to get independence, so they obviously get occupied, Austria must be occupied too because otherwise they will revolt like Tyrol did, if the Habsburgs are left in Hungary they become Prussia 2.0 and will jump at the first chance to get revenge, if they are kicked from Hungary Napoleon must put in place a massive occupation force to maintain order. There is no chance that Bohemia, Hungary or Austria will become happy little Napoleonic allies because Napoleon was not kind to his allies, he basically just exploited them. So, the most probable result of this scheme would be to create Tyrol 2.0, Spain 2.0 and Spain 3.0.