AHPC: Aircraft Carrier Role in an ALT with No Pacific War?

[B-29_Bomber]

In OTL we ultimately developed a carrier centered fleet doctrine due to experiences earned in the war against Japan in the 1940s. While aircraft were being developed well before then (obviously), they weren't the impressive Supercarriers that would develop post war.

So, without the Pacific war, how would the concept of Aircraft carriers develop during the course of the 20th century?

I suspect that carrier battle groups would still be a thing, but they and the carriers themselves would be smaller and play a much more supportive role towards an overall fleet that's centered on Battleships (though how Battleships would develop is another thread entirely).

The ALT scenario this would develop in is thus:

There is still a second world war, however, it's primarily an Anti-Communist, Anti-Soviet affair, with fighting in Europe (main front line after initial Soviet successes are on the Rhine and Alps) and Mainland China (Chinese Civil War; Siberia/Manchuria). The Japanese are part of the Allies.

 

[Dilvish]

Carrier bomber tactics and development lean far more towards bombing land targets versus attacking ships, and less emphasis upon the use of torpedoes. Improving aerial search techniques is a lesser priority than in OTL.

Multiple carriers grouped together will still develop as a means to concentrate airpower against heavily defended targets on land. In this ATL, I am imaging the IJN's First Carrier Striking Force being sent to the Atlantic to operate with British and US carrier groups. The cross-pollination of techniques will be interesting.

 

[Zheng He]

I think the RN's armored carriers become the "correct design" due to the need for carriers to operate within range of land based airpower.

Agree that large multi-carrier groups will become the standard, taking one or two carriers close to massed land based airpower will be viewed as suicide.

I also think escorts to protect carriers against fast and small combatants will be very important as will anti-submarine protection (both airborne and surface ship based).

 

[marathag]

I think the RN's armored carriers become the "correct design" due to the need for carriers to operate within range of land based airpower.

If only US Carriers had spent time attacking German and Italian ground targets, would there be data to make that call on armor with small airgroup vs little armor and large airgroup

 

[Just Leo]

Torpedoes are not affected by deck armor.

 

[Riain]

Without the Pacific experience the RN had already designed the Audacious class by 1942 which eventually maxed out at over 50k tons. So carriers are going to get big without the Pacific.

 

[Just Leo]

The Avenger class, of 1942, displaced 9,000 tons, so carriers could be relatively small as well.

 

[hipper]

I think the RN's armored carriers become the "correct design" due to the need for carriers to operate within range of land based airpower.

Agree that large multi-carrier groups will become the standard, taking one or two carriers close to massed land based airpower will be viewed as suicide.

I also think escorts to protect carriers against fast and small combatants will be very important as will anti-submarine protection (both airborne and surface ship based).

That’s OTL all US carriers since Midway have had armoured Flight Decks

 

[B-29_Bomber]

Do keep in mind that the PoD is Pre-1900.

 

[Riain]

The Avenger class, of 1942, displaced 9,000 tons, so carriers could be relatively small as well.

True, but I doubt anyone saw escort carriers as much more than a wartime stopgap, certainly the Majestic class light fleet carriers were designed before the lessons of the Pacific war were digested.

 

[James Ricker]

We would have seen the next generation of battleships that only existed on paper, the follow ons to the Lion, Montana,Iowa and Yamato.
Those would have taken resources away from aircraft carrier construction so carriers would supplant battleships probably into the early 1960s , when the last of the old Battleship Admirals retire.

 

[Gunnarnz]

Do keep in mind that the PoD is Pre-1900.

I don't mean to be rude, but why is the thread in this part of the forum then? There's a perfectly good Pre-1900 section available - if you put it here, you're implicitly stating that the PoD is Post-1900. Since you didn't specify a PoD, but were talking about HTA aircraft and aircraft carriers in an alt-WW2 it's a natural mistake for people to make.

 

[marathag]

That’s OTL all US carriers since Midway have had armoured Flight Decks

Not that its been tested in combat.

Midway Armor against a AS-4 Kitchen ASM from a Backfire wouldn't be noticed vs hitting a rebuilt Essex
Both go
*glub glub glub* as the bit left over from the warhead hit, sank

Having the heavier flight deck structure was more from having large A3D 'Whale' size craft operating from the carriers.

 

[hipper]

Not that its been tested in combat.

Midway Armor against a AS-4 Kitchen ASM from a Backfire wouldn't be noticed vs hitting a rebuilt Essex
Both go
*glub glub glub* as the bit left over from the warhead hit, sank

Having the heavier flight deck structure was more from having large A3D 'Whale' size craft operating from the carriers.

The US DOD think it’s armour, if you see pictures of the Forestall deck park explosions you can see the thickness of the Flight deck.

The modern carrier is the only surface ship now in the U.S. Navy designed
and built to be survivable. The ship design encompasses many features (such
as armored flight deck, double hull, magazine location, and shock-absorbing
structures) intended to allow the ship to sustain multiple hits by missiles or
torpedoes, yet survive. Automation is improving damage control effectiveness
and response speed. The features now incorporated in carriers are effective
against current threats but continuous improvement is necessary to keep up
with advances in adversary weaponry.
Defense Science Board
Task Force on
FUTURE OF THE
AIRCRAFT CARRIER
October 2002
Office of the Undersecretary of Defense
For Acquisition, Technology, and Logistics
Washington, D.C. 20301-3140

 

[marathag]

The US DOD think it’s armour, if you see pictures of the Forestall deck park explosions you can see the thickness of the Flight deck.

A 5" Zuni misfire that hit an external drop tank and got a fireburning, that in the end got thousands of gallons of JP5 burning topside and in the Hangar
It was the fire that was the problem, not the holes made by a half dozen Korean War era bombs that cooked off

And the Kitchen had a one ton warhead, plus what ever fuel was left, traveling fast

 

[Barry Bull]

Jets.

Unless development of the jet engine is also affected, carrier aircraft is likely to increase in size and weight, thus the carrier needs to be decided bigger too in order to maintain no. of aircrafts carried.

 

[Zheng He]

Jets.

Unless development of the jet engine is also affected, carrier aircraft is likely to increase in size and weight, thus the carrier needs to be decided bigger too in order to maintain no. of aircrafts carried.

Will also lead to things like angled decks...

 

[marathag]

Will also lead to things like angled decks...

maybe not the way you think

 

[Barry Bull]

Will also lead to things like angled decks...

Even without the Pacific War, I think there will be instance in TTL that carrier aircraft successfully sink an escorted battleship. Combining that with development jet engine and rocket engine, the missile age probably would only be slightly hindered in its arrival and supercarriers would also be developed.

 

[Shadow Master]

I saw no mention of ASW? What years are we talking here, anyway?