AHC: With as Minimal change as Possible, cause an American discovery or interaction of/with AfroEurAsia

[John7755 يوحنا]

Your challenge if you choose to accept it, with a POD in the year 250 CE (Classical Period Mesoamerica, 250-900 CE), do one of the following:

1. Have a state that is within America (either continent) actively discover either Africa, Europe or Asia and interact with the people there for a short time and frequently return.

2. Have a situation wherein trading networks in America extend so far outward, that by accident, they make trade contact with some sort of realm in Europe, Africa or Asia and a series of interaction occurs that allows people in Europe, Africa or Asia, to know regularly of large civilizations to their west.

Rules:

No sole usage of the Norse to do so. Or any other African, European or Asian people, may cause or induce such interaction. Rather, it will only be permitted those answers which postulate this discovery or interaction as being forwarded by the Americans.

A secondary question for the board too, is how large of an event or series of events might we need for a imperial or societal collapse in America, to be heard of in Europe, Africa or Asia, without them having actively observed it? Such as the fall of a major state, and its fall, being understood vaguely in the east as a sort of interesting fable and this led to a worse trade communication with the faraway land beyond.

Much of this was derived from a some thoughts that I had regarding the possibility of a series of myths being perpetuated in Africa, Europe and the Mid East of a wealthy and fearsome alien empire to the far west, that interacted with their forefathers, but fell long ago. Now, with only moderate trade linkage between their descendants and the people of the current.

 

[AltoRegnant]

Wary of tensions with Rome and Egypt, Carthage starts going around africa to trade with india and China, setting up ports along the way and eventually getting blown off course into brazil. However, after the punic wars, rome sees no reason to continue the expeditions. Without support of the homeland, carthaginian colonies either wither and die, or integrate into the native regions

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

Wary of tensions with Rome and Egypt, Carthage starts going around africa to trade with india and China, setting up ports along the way and eventually getting blown off course into brazil. However, after the punic wars, rome sees no reason to continue the expeditions. Without support of the homeland, carthaginian colonies either wither and die, or integrate into the native regions

This would not be appropriate for the timeline. As it would be induced via the interactions of the Eastern hemisphere. Also which challenge are you attempting to achieve?

 

[AltoRegnant]

This would not be appropriate for the timeline. As it would be induced via the interactions of the Eastern hemisphere. Also which challenge are you attempting to achieve?

I had misread the challenges, my bad

 

[Tairo]

The Wari and Tiwanaku cultures are united/conquered by one power who without an equivalent power then spread potato farming along the west coast of America. By 700AD Potatoes are so prolific on the Pacific Coast that the Tlingit have a population surplus, so begin exploring Northwestwards and from there start trading more extensively with the Aleuts and then the Ainu. This trade eventually comes to the attention of Nara Japan which leads to Nara-Tlingit trade with each side being unaware that they're now trading with seperate continents. Incidentally, this level of trade inadvertently alleviates Nara Japan's revenue issues, so whether or not the Shogunate still arises is an open question.

 

[twovultures]

The Arctic technological revolution of the medieval era (around 700 AD IIRC) takes place in northern Greenland instead of the Aleuts. The Dorset lifeway is quickly replaced by a new Greenlandic one, which rapidly spreads not only westward towards Alaska but also southward. From southern Greenland, these *Inuits use umiak boats to make the jump to Iceland, discovering a part of Europe. From there, it's a coin toss as to who runs into who, but it's entirely possible that an umiak could make contact with some of the islands north of Britain, meeting either Celtic or Norse people and establishing trade for walrus ivory.

Unfortunately, this interaction does not really give much basis for an state system collapse. However, a drop in trade due to exposure to smallpox in the 13th century could spark such legends.

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

The Haida (or another group of seaborne raiders) chase some of the Alaskan natives back across the straits, and start extending their raiding activities to coastal Kamchatka.

 

[LuckyLuciano]

The Wari and Tiwanaku cultures are united/conquered by one power who without an equivalent power then spread potato farming along the west coast of America. By 700AD Potatoes are so prolific on the Pacific Coast that the Tlingit have a population surplus, so begin exploring Northwestwards and from there start trading more extensively with the Aleuts and then the Ainu. This trade eventually comes to the attention of Nara Japan which leads to Nara-Tlingit trade with each side being unaware that they're now trading with seperate continents. Incidentally, this level of trade inadvertently alleviates Nara Japan's revenue issues, so whether or not the Shogunate still arises is an open question.

But the Taino are in the Caribbean

 

[Tairo]

But the Taino are in the Caribbean

Yeah, mixed postition of Tlingit and Taino. Should be fixed now. I asked a similar question several months back and was informed for such an event to happen that the Tlingit would need to become 'The Taino of Alaska' for New World to discover the Old World so sometimes find myself tripping up on their name.

Further thinking on @John7755 يوحنا Original conditions, there is an extremely narrow window in which the Dorset Culture can discover Iceland before the Norse. Between 793-825, they can spread from the canadian archipelago to Greenland and then Iceland allowing for an American-Europe contact as both are either unpopulated or underpopulated. The most difficult IMO would be an America-Africa contact

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

While a northern discovery root is very interesting, my main point, is for there to be a civilizational complex that would have some sort of contact with the East, that would allow for legends to be created in the west of some sort of Roman or China-like empire. This thus, creates a different form of relation between these hemispheres and how they view each other. Thus, we can imagine, the point is for one of the major civilizational complexes with large populations make said contact. This could be one that you create through some sort of POD or that of the Andean or Mesoamerican cultural spheres.

If minimal changes is the issue, we can remove that stipulation for the moment, if impossible otherwise. however, the no western inducement remains.

 

[Tairo]

The Tlingit-Nara is the best candidacy for such interactions IMO. Nara-China relations soured considerably after the An Lushan rebellion, a route to the east that allows them to be the power-in-question will be welcomed with open arms, so the main issue for such a scenario is either Wari or Tiwanaku conquering the other. OTL they existed in a cold-war type scenario where one declaring war on the other would lead to both collapsing. If potatoes spread to Mesoamerica before either collapse in such a scenario, the Toltecs can introduce them to pacific tribes. Once potatoes reach California, it becomes a question as to who reaches Asia as the population surplus afforded by them is significant. If terrace-farming is also adopted as the norm north of Mesoamerica, ANY Pacific tribe has the possibility of reaching Asia. The most absurd/insane IMO would be the Kuksu establishing contact with Heian Japan.

Wari and Tiwanaku were both established circa 500/550AD, so that gives around 5 centuries for potatoes to become a staple crop along the pacific before the OTL Norse show up.

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

The Tlingit-Nara is the best candidacy for such interactions IMO. Nara-China relations soured considerably after the An Lushan rebellion, a route to the east that allows them to be the power-in-question will be welcomed with open arms, so the main issue for such a scenario is either Wari or Tiwanaku conquering the other. OTL they existed in a cold-war type scenario where one declaring war on the other would lead to both collapsing. If potatoes spread to Mesoamerica before either collapse in such a scenario, the Toltecs can introduce them to pacific tribes. Once potatoes reach California, it becomes a question as to who reaches Asia as the population surplus afforded by them is significant. If terrace-farming is also adopted as the norm north of Mesoamerica, ANY Pacific tribe has the possibility of reaching Asia. The most absurd/insane IMO would be the Kuksu establishing contact with Heian Japan.

Wari and Tiwanaku were both established circa 500/550AD, so that gives around 5 centuries for potatoes to become a staple crop along the pacific before the OTL Norse show up.

Interesting... An Andean induced transit sphere to Japan and China.... Do you have any ideas as to the second part of the question? How large and powerful might an Andean realm have to become for it to become a legendary like entity in Japan or China.

 

[Tairo]

So long as such an Andean power reaches Mesoamerica, Japan will consider it a 'Daqin' to the East. It's there, it's equivalent and each power has a vested interest in 'one-upping' the other. Nara can establish several trade-posts along the PNW, with Wari-naku's influence reaching California. OTL, the Imperial Court of Japan had a habit of assigning 'frontier' provinces to military families that would later become the basis of the Samurai. If this 'inadvertant' trade continues long enough, you can see proto-samaruai and wari-naku outposts/colonies along the pacific coast. The pacific tribes allow/welcome this as they basically amass a fortune for doing nothing besides supporting the 'local' power. As soon as Horses or Rice appear in the Pacific tribes, anyone with half a brain shuts down complaints/issues because 'we get rich/feed well/new animals so long as these two idiots don't directly interact with each other' is fantastic incentive for damn near anyone.

 

[Deleted member 67076]

What about a much earlier end to the Long Pause, allowing the spread of Pacific islander sailing technologies to the New World by late Antiquity? Alongside their crop package as well. The result being that there is a rush of statebuilding from population increase and technological transfer.

Eventually, some states get the idea of adding cotton sails to Polynesian ships and expanding their size to something like a carrack in order to support the trans hemisphere trade in the Eastern Coast (thinking Caribbean trade network flows upwards into Mound Builders and Eastern Woodlands people). Soon enough, these traders then stumble upon to Northern Europe in the Middle Ages following the wind patterns, and sustained trade is made.