How would you make Belgium not go back to the Spanish Hapsburgs in the Dutch Revolt? What would be the results of the subsequent unity?
AHC/WI: Unified Netherlands
- Thread starter caliburdeath
- Start date
Perhaps William of Orange makes a concession in that the Netherlands will not have a state religion, and that Catholicism and Protestantism should be tolerated equally?
That wouldn't work, as not only was the south also protestant*, thereason it ended up Spanish was because the Spanish manage to reconquer it. Basicly you need a way to weaken the Spanish so that it either won't be recaptured by the Spanish or the Dutch manage to recapture it. if you do this early enough, the south could even end up protestant. The hard part is how. I would say you need to get a better position of the Dutch in the early stages of the war (no treaty of Rennenberg for example, less succes for the Spanish march north, no fall if Antwerp, etc, maybe no Parma), so they are in a better position when the tide turns and they manage to recapture most of the southern Netherlands.
BTW it was William of Orange that tried to avoid the dominating position of the Calvinist Church in the Netherlands. He wanted both the catholics and (all kinds of) protestants together in the Netherlands. The problem was that the calvincist church had so many supporters (in both the north as the south), it became the dominating religion.
* the Flemish parts at least, Wallonia is a different story
Um, actually, no. Flanders was VERY Catholic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Belgium#Roman_Catholicism
Exactly. Flanders was where the Dutch reformation started, but when it was recaptured bythe Spanish the protestants either fled, were killed or reconverted.
I'd say no Parma (and no equivalent good Spanish general) is the key, to holding Flanders at least. You probably can't keep the staunchly Catholic Walloon provinces (most importantly Artois and Hainaut) loyal no matter what you do, so you need a Spanish general who isn't capable of using them as a base to reconquer the north. Due to their small size, I could imagine Spain having to give them up in any subsequent peace treaty, or the stronger northern Netherlands reconquering them.
Avoiding William of Orange's murder might also help, both for keeping moderate Catholics on side (which, I believe, were still a large portion of the Dutch populace) and perhaps for stability, as I believe he was about to be appointed Count of Holland and Zealand. Of course, if you avoid Parma's appearance, there would have been major butterflies in the meantime so I'm not sure what additional significance it could have. More effective foreign help would also be nice, but I'm not sure how to arrange that - this era isn't my area of expertise.
Avoiding William of Orange's murder might also help, both for keeping moderate Catholics on side (which, I believe, were still a large portion of the Dutch populace) and perhaps for stability, as I believe he was about to be appointed Count of Holland and Zealand. Of course, if you avoid Parma's appearance, there would have been major butterflies in the meantime so I'm not sure what additional significance it could have. More effective foreign help would also be nice, but I'm not sure how to arrange that - this era isn't my area of expertise.
The problem with keeping William of Orange alive was that he was a big proponent of the alliance with England and the English, at least Leicester, was an idiot who almost on his own lost the Netherlands because of being a bumbling fool. The English troops often revolting against the Dutch didn't help either.
Although, if you get rid of Parma, combined with no betrayal of Rennenberg (which meant the loss of the north east), could easily butterfly this away. Maybe the English sent someone competent.
Well it might work in such a way that each state/province has the right to determine its' own state (province) religion.
Also regarding the dominating position of the Calvinists in the Republic, IMHO isn't only determined by the amount of supporters, but also the background or rather social standing of their supporters.
Partly true. I would roughly say that among the upper class (the nobility) there usualy were an equal number of catholics and calvinists (and a minority of Lutherans and other protestants). Among the middle class though there was a major advantage among the calvinists. Basicly the moment Spanish were gone, Calvinists managed to kick out the ruling catholics and replace them with protestants. There was almost no oposition of catholics, with the exception of a couple of cities in the south (usualy Wallonia or southern Brabant). this suggest that most commoners didn't care about catholicism or protestantism enough to do something about it. I would say a large majority of the Dutch people had enough of the catholic church and wanted change or didn't care about it at all.
BTW I am not speaking about the later Dutch republic, but about the start of the Dutch revolt.
As you started with the Neanderthals in chapter one, I prefer not to read it all at the moment. So what did you use as the POD?