AHC/WI Shun Dynasty Victorious
- Thread starter black_0
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The Shun Dynasty was surprisingly well organized and was unafraid of using high tech weaponry (such as better cannon) but it would have had a hard time dealing with both the Manchus and what was left of the Ming Dynasty, especially since they have no navy to speak of.
Expect to see China split into two parts, at least for 20-30 years, as the Shun focus on issues related to food security and land distribution in the North China Plain. Then, they can get to the task of building enough of a navy to take on the Southern Ming.
Expect to see China split into two parts, at least for 20-30 years, as the Shun focus on issues related to food security and land distribution in the North China Plain. Then, they can get to the task of building enough of a navy to take on the Southern Ming.
Dorozhand
Banned
IIRC, during the battle of Shanhai Pass the Ming lines under Wu Sangui's command were about ready to break and rout until the Manchu cavalry came and turned the tide. Against either of these individual forces alone, then, I think the Shun could probably have been victorious.
If both opponents must stay, then what you need is a situation in which the Shun fight each force separately. I posted a scenario a few months ago about an alternate Shanhai. In it, I posited that if the Manchu had been delayed, then Wu Sangui's line could have broken, and the Shun forces could have taken the walls of the pass. With the walls in their hands, they could then defend them against the Manchu cavalry, locking them in a stationary fight that they'll likely lose.
Dorozhand
Banned
I think that, given the right circumstances, Shun could have unified China by 1700 or earlier. Getting Wu Sangui on Shun's side is key.
If they can work together and defeat the Manchu in battle, then the Manchu will be effectively removed as a threat, as they would likely descend into civil war.
The Southern Ming, while it will take time, will be a relatively simple nut to crack. They just have to let the warring princes and factions bleed each other to death until they hate each other so much that a few of them decide to throw in their lot with Shun rather than another claimant of Ming. Divide and conquer should win the day for Shun eventually.
As for Li Zicheng being a commoner, so was the founder of Ming.
In my TL, I had the Shun conquer the Manchu. The Shun themselves had excellent cavalry forces capable of resisting Manchu cavalry. Additionally, like the Manchu, they were avid users of cannon.
As for Li Zicheng's status as a commoner, who cares? Power grows out of the barrel of a gun after all.
As for Li Zicheng's status as a commoner, who cares? Power grows out of the barrel of a gun after all.
Dorozhand
Banned
Exactly. The Manchu, being foreigners, had to act more Chinese than the Chinese in order to win their respect and support. They were always self-conscious in that respect. It wasn't for any lack of desire that Qing refused to modernize, it was because that if they did, the Chinese would have lost respect for them and rebelled. They drove tradition into the ground in order to cling to their power. A Han Chinese dynasty would be able to modernize without the scorn of the people, and may even have continued into the 20th century and beyond, preserving some tradition without being zealots.
Nihao
Banned
It was quite shocking for me to find out at the first time, but Li was actually the descendent of the Western Xia royal family. It could be proved when Li has proclaimed Li Jiqian---the first king of the Dominion of Xia, which later became Western Xia---as the first emperor of the Shun; and he had changed the Ming system of rites, with much of the Western Xia cultural elements added in it, so the Shun was actually a foreign, Tangut-dominating dynasty, instead of a ethnic Han Chinese dynasty.
And I heavily doubt if the Shun could modernize better than the Qing. First, the Shun was a foreign dynasty, which had to face the same problem as the Qing had---how to deal with the vast Han population properly while maintaining the power that the Tangut held, so the Shun might only modernize to a degree that it will not harm the ruling class, which is much like the Qing; also, Li was a peasant, which made him think the way a peasant think---it will be alright when there were enough lands for the people to farm on, and being a merchant is no good for the Middle Kingdom---so when the westerners came, I doubt how they would be treated, but that would be many many years after the reign of Wudi (the name of Li Zheng as the emperor), though the influence of his way of ruling might still maintain.
I've given this some thought. Li Zicheng himself didn't really come off as entirely imperial. Additionally, given his ideas regarding land reform and the sort of advisors he took in, I doubt that he would have put much emphasis on how Tangut his dynasty was or how Tangut his nobility was going to be.
Nihao
Banned
Well, I am not sure what you mean on "the sort of advisors" and sorry for that if I got anything wrong, but if you are talking about the nationality of his advisors and generals who worked for him, that didn't do anything with his Tangut blood actually. It was nessasary for his dynasty to had many Han Chinese worked for it in order to gain more popularity among the traditional Confucian society which was quite hostile to the foreign rule on China, so it was reasonable for him, as a Tangut emperor, to have many Han Chinese working for him.
Also, land reform was almost every dynasties' first policy to be implemented, whatever the first emperor was imperial or not. And again, it was because gaining support from the people, as most of the population in China were farming, and a good land reform could benefit so much for them, so much that most of the Chinese dynasties were on good fame on history was because of having success on land reform, like Han and T'ang.
But yeah, he had no reason for emphasing his identity as a Tangut descendent so much as long as this would make his dynasty's relation with the Confucian scholars worse, as there were many scholars who still pledge loyalty to the dying Ming dynasty, meanwhile Li was neither related to the Ming royalty nor a man who would please the scholars---he was a rebel against the Ming after all. So emphasing his Tangut royalty too much would anger the scholars more, as again, the Confucians were not quite pleased on foreign rule over the Moddle Kingdom. But it didn't mean Li would erase any evidence on his Tangut blood---he was still a Chinese, and Chinese are always put much respect on thier ancestors.
King Helü of Wu
Banned
It would help if Emperor Chongzhen gave up his throne to Li Zicheng, but that's difficult.
It would definitely help if Shun troops did not loot Beijing, but to try to take over the pre-existing bureaucracy in an orderly manner.
It would definitely help if Shun troops did not loot Beijing, but to try to take over the pre-existing bureaucracy in an orderly manner.
Well yes, but all in all, I seriously doubt that the Shun's marginally Tangut ancestry would put a severe crimp in China's modernization. Some Tangut ancestry is not the same thing as what the Manchus had going on. Additionally, a peasant-led movement is going to put less emphasis on the classics in civil service examinations than an aristocratic dynasty would.
While I agree with the ancestry part, I don't think that the fact that the Shun's rise is a peasant-led movement would necessarily have meant a de-emphasis on traditional learning, especially not for generations after its founding. For that you'd probably have to have the emperor himself leave behind some significant legacy as a "practical ruler" or one "not bound by old customs and standards" that becomes part of a lasting mythos/dynastic culture.
Faeelin
Banned
I kind of agree with you. I mean, the Ming got their start as the offshoot of a Messianic Buddhist revolution...
Nihao
Banned
And while Taizu used to be a peasant, he had created a new form of examination which needed the candidates to answer the questions with the knowledge and mindsets in the C9nfucian classics.
Dorozhand
Banned
IIRC, Li Zicheng chose "Yongchang" (eternal prosperity) as his era name, and he didn't have a posthumous name, because the Qing did not regard him as legitimate.