AHC/WI: Saxons settled Iceland?

[hirsch91]

What if as a result of the Saxon wars, some Saxons fled to Iceland? IOTL Charlemagne executed 4,500 Saxons at Verden and deported thousands to other areas of the Carolingian empire. Could a few thousand Saxons have escaped to Iceland? Did they have the technology to do so? I presume a key requirement for this to work is for them to know about Iceland which in turn requires them to know and have settled the Faeroe and Shetland islands beforehand.

Assuming thousands of them manage to escape to Iceland, what would the broader implications be?
What would the the Norse do when they see their pagan relatives already inhabiting Iceland? How would Saxon Icelanders react to the Norse?
Would Saxon Iceland be able to stay independent or would it fall into the sphere of Norway? And if it does fall into Norways sphere, will Christianization happen just like it did to OTL Iceland with Norway putting them under economic pressure or could it remain pagan? Would they even be as reliant on Norway as OTL Iceland was or could they diversify their trading partners rather than having Norway be their main trading partner?
If it somehow isn't christianized via economic pressure from its "overlord", would there be a crusade against them? After all the Norwegians had no qualms going on crusades against pagan Swedes though Iceland would be significantly farther away rather than directly neighbor Norway. Though distance didn't stop the Norwegians nor the English to go on crusades to the middle east.
What are the chances that Saxon Iceland could successfully throw Norwegian/English crusaders back into the sea?
Did Europeans already know about the Faeroe islands by 770 and just didn't settle them because Scandinavian population pressure wasn't there yet?
Could a few hundred Saxons have fled to the Shetland/Faeroe islands at the start of Charlemagne's campaign, discovered Iceland near the end of the war in 792 and convinced other Saxons to flee there? It's not like the Saxons had a lot of options considering how brutal their Christianization was.
Speaking of their Christianization, will the Saxons wars be ingrained in the Saxon Icelanders collective memory and would this make it less likely that they will be christianized without a fight?
Would Saxon Iceland participate in the Viking age?

 

[mrmandias]

Did the Saxons have a seafaring tradition? I think your question about technology is probably not, along with the desire and the awareness of Iceland as a place of refuge.

It's too bad Iceland was already settled by 1066, I thought your thread was going to be about Anglo-saxon refugees in Iceland and was curious how you were going to pull it off.

 

[pjmidd]

Did the Saxons have a seafaring tradition? I think your question about technology is probably not, along with the desire and the awareness of Iceland as a place of refuge.

Well they did manage to attack Britain for years as the Roman's built the forts of the Saxon Shore to stop them. They were the Viking's of that era ie sea raiders/mercenaries. So its a question more of when they stopped being seafarers. They were still migrating across the North Sea as late as the early 6th Century.

 

[mrmandias]

Not sure those were the same saxons.

Besides, migrating across the north sea and sailing to Iceland are not the same.

 

[CaptainCalvert]

There were supposedly some celts in Iceland before norse settlement, and recent reports indicate some celtic influence on Icelandic language. That might have arisen outside Iceland, since the Norse had settlements and trade links with celtic areas.
So, if the Saxons could get there [1] they would either have to deal with some existing settlers or would face periodic visits from adventurers,fishers or traders.

[1] I can't see this being likely, but ships blown of course can be patched up, although I don't think the Saxons would. have had enough seagoing navigation skills to get back easily.

 

[DJ03]

how did the norse find Iceland to being w/?

 

[CaptainCalvert]

how did the norse find Iceland to being w/?

They sailed west like they'd done before.
If you look at a map or better still a globe you'll see thst at about latitude 60 you get Lofoten, Scottish Islands, Faroes, Iceland, East, West Greenland, Vinland. Keeping latitude is relatively easy, and add in the expectation of finding land within a few weeks' sailing, decent seagoing boats and an understanfing of behavious of seabirds (they nest and roost on land so their presence and direction of travel morning and evening tells you land is near and the general direction) and weather (certain cloud forms only form over land) and it's relatively straightforward. Any volcanic plumes from Iceland also help. There are also stories of norse sailors meeting inuit kayakers, who must have come from somewhere accessible by boat.

Of course, the north Atlantic isn't an easy place to sail across, but a decent boat, good navigator and an expectation of success will usually work if you head West from Norway.

I got a lot of this from a book about Viking era voyages, and a bit from The Age of Reconnaissance, which is mostly looking a bit later on. Plus a bit I picked up on Pacific navigation, and general interest. Not that you'd want me navigating your boat in an emergency,a my limit is that in a small boat I can aim for a bridge and successfully pass between the piers while the captain is busy.

 

[DJ03]

They sailed west like they'd done before.
If you look at a map or better still a globe you'll see thst at about latitude 60 you get Lofoten, Scottish Islands, Faroes, Iceland, East, West Greenland, Vinland. Keeping latitude is relatively easy, and add in the expectation of finding land within a few weeks' sailing, decent seagoing boats and an understanfing of behavious of seabirds (they nest and roost on land so their presence and direction of travel morning and evening tells you land is near and the general direction) and weather (certain cloud forms only form over land) and it's relatively straightforward. Any volcanic plumes from Iceland also help. There are also stories of norse sailors meeting inuit kayakers, who must have come from somewhere accessible by boat.

Of course, the north Atlantic isn't an easy place to sail across, but a decent boat, good navigator and an expectation of success will usually work if you head West from Norway.

some anlo-saxons migrated to Scotland iotl, but it was a landmigration from britain afaik and it doesn't seem like they got anywhere close to 60° before the viking age

I got a lot of this from a book about Viking era voyages, and a bit from The Age of Reconnaissance, which is mostly looking a bit later on. Plus a bit I picked up on Pacific navigation, and general interest. Not that you'd want me navigating your boat in an emergency,a my limit is that in a small boat I can aim for a bridge and successfully pass between the piers while the captain is busy.

tbh you're prbbly better than me anyway : p

 

[Jurgen Wullenwever]

I was under the impression that the Saxons dominated North Sea shipping, until Charlemagne conquered them. The resulting power void allowed the Scandinavians to become seafaring Vikings instead.

Is going to Iceland that much different from sailing in the North Sea?

 

[cloistered scholar]

There were supposedly some celts in Iceland before norse settlement, and recent reports indicate some celtic influence on Icelandic language. That might have arisen outside Iceland, since the Norse had settlements and trade links with celtic areas.
So, if the Saxons could get there [1] they would either have to deal with some existing settlers or would face periodic visits from adventurers,fishers or traders.

[1] I can't see this being likely, but ships blown of course can be patched up, although I don't think the Saxons would. have had enough seagoing navigation skills to get back easily.

The celtic influence was probably from Irish slaves rather then the celtic monks the island probably had.

I think part of the reason the Vikings succeeded where others had failed was because their crops were adapted to a far northern climate, rather then the grains the monks brought with them from Britain, that they seemed to fail with.

 

[hirsch91]

Did the Saxons have a seafaring tradition? I think your question about technology is probably not, along with the desire and the awareness of Iceland as a place of refuge.

Apart from Saxons along with the Jutes and the Angles invading Britain a few centuries earlier, I don't know much about the Saxons seafaring capabilities. However, the neighboring Frisians, who were conquered by the Franks just a few decades prior, certainly had a long seafaring tradition with the the medieval cog having originated there. The last Frisians in what is today Groningen and East Frisia got integrated into the Carolingian empire just when the Saxon wars started in 772 which was a reason why many Frisians supported the Saxons in their war against Charlemagne. So maybe it isn't too far fetched to have some Frisians help and accompany the Saxons in the quest to settle Iceland?

There were supposedly some celts in Iceland before norse settlement, and recent reports indicate some celtic influence on Icelandic language. That might have arisen outside Iceland, since the Norse had settlements and trade links with celtic areas.
So, if the Saxons could get there [1] they would either have to deal with some existing settlers or would face periodic visits from adventurers,fishers or traders.

[1] I can't see this being likely, but ships blown of course can be patched up, although I don't think the Saxons would. have had enough seagoing navigation skills to get back easily.

AFAIK, the only Irish who came to Iceland were Irish monks who tried to simulate Jesus' 40 days in the desert. Based on the Desert Fathers who thought the best way to find God is through isolation. Since Ireland didn't have any deserts nearby they chose the next best thing, an icy desert aka Iceland.

how did the norse find Iceland to being w/?

They settled the Shetlands and Faeroe islands first during the Viking era and after a couple of decades, one Faeroer drifted off course from Norway to Iceland when he was on his way home to the Faeroes . The next person was a Swede named Gardar Svavarsson who sailed from Denmark to the Hebrides to claim an inheritance but got drifted off course too and landed in Iceland. The first Norse to travel to Iceland on purpose was Hrafna (Raven) Flóki Vilgerðarson who went from Norway to the Shetlands to the Faeroe, where he picked up 3 ravens which he used to locate land as it was a common trick for the Norse, to Iceland.

I was under the impression that the Saxons dominated North Sea shipping, until Charlemagne conquered them. The resulting power void allowed the Scandinavians to become seafaring Vikings instead.

Is going to Iceland that much different from sailing in the North Sea?

I don't know about the Saxons dominating North Sea shipping but the Frisians most certainly did, as they were skilled sailors and shipbuilders.
A requirement for them to sail to Iceland is to at least have settled the Shetland and Faeroe islands as it's what the Norse did before bumping into Iceland.

 

[Jürgen]

I think the main difference between the Angle-Saxon-Jutish and Danish-Norwegian invasions of the British islands was that the former were coast hugger, while the latter were sail across the deep sea. If we look at Anglo-Saxon conquest it happened in the South East, where they crossed from mainland, while the Danish invasion happened first in the North East and the Norwegian invasions in the North West after having sailed around Scotland.

But the Saxons at Charlemagne time were different from their ancestors a few centuries earlier, and they likely had a similar sailing technology to the Danes. But at the same time try look at a map of the old kingdom of Saxony versus Denmark, the Saxons had a pretty limited coastline [1], while the majority of Danes lived very near the coast. The average Dane had far greater knowledge of sailing than their Saxon counterpart even if they had the same technology.

Honestly if we talk about a West Germanic pagan refugees from the Franks, I would go with the Frisians instead of Saxons.

[1] The Saxons at the time of the Anglo-Saxon invasion are believed to have lived in Holstein and Mecklenburg, so far more or them would have experience with sailing than the 8th century Saxons

 

[hirsch91]

-snip-

In that case, could some Frisians have settled the Shetland and Faroe islands when they effectively lost their independence at the end of the Frisian wars in 734 and after a couple decades they find Iceland and evacuate what little is left of Frisians east of the Lauwers along with boatloads of Saxons? After all it didn't take the Norse too long to find and settle Iceland after having settled the Faroe islands.

 

[Jürgen]

In that case, could some Frisians have settled the Shetland and Faroe islands when they effectively lost their independence at the end of the Frisian wars in 734 and after a couple decades they find Iceland and evacuate what little is left of Frisians east of the Lauwers along with boatloads of Saxons? After all it didn't take the Norse too long to find and settle Iceland after having settled the Faroe islands.

I don't think it's impossible, many people believe the Frisians in the Danish-German borderland to be decendent of Frisian refugees fleeing the Frankish conquest. It's not impossible for a some Frisian becpoming aware of these islands, the Faroe Island had a small population of Irish munks, so these could be expelled, killed or enslaved, and from there the Frisians could become aware of Iceland and also colonize that island.

 

[Some Bloke]

Surviving Saxon state after Hastings?
Maybe an attempt at retaking England during the Anarchy?

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

I really loved the scene in King Arthur where the Saxons are attacking across Hadrians Wall. Because sailing tech was marginal, this meant the Saxons would have had to ROW all the way north, past lush green *England to land in *Scotland, in order to attack south....

No, Saxons of that era wouldn't have gotten to Iceland.
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