Prehaps a bush variety of oak with non-bitter acorns. Still have the domesticated animal problem though.
AHC/WI: Other River Valley Civilizations?
- Thread starter SirPaperweight
- Start date
If the Mississippians could have gained access to the better strains of Mesoamerican maize they would have been able to avoid collapse, and grow further. Considering the Maya were known to trade with the Taino in the Caribbean, it's not that much of a stretch to get a PoD to create stable contact between both of these cultural spheres.
Thande
Donor
I remember an Irish-wank TL on the old frontpage of this site which did something with the Mississippian civilisation, but I think it just turned them into a cartoonishly evil baddie for the Irish superpower. (Yeah...)
That sounds like it would be an amusing read non the less. I've read the article on the wiki about the Irish super power cliche, but must have joined the board too late to encounter that.
Bitterness of oak acorns is not the problem IMO actually: After all, they were a staple throughout the Californian Cultural Area.
All acorns really need is water leaching to get out the tannins and cooking them; besides, potatoes, all but one species of yam, manioc, fonio, taro and arguably even rice need significant processing of some sort (be it cooking, husking or leaching or some combination of the two) to be really useful as staples (who eats raw rice grains...), and nothing has stopped them from becoming major crops IOTL. Indeed, rice probably takes more processing than bitter acorns, yet that didn't stop it from becoming the world's third most important crop.
As for the domestic animal problem, don't forget that Mesoamerica got by with basically the same amount of potential domesticates as California has natively.
1) maize is deficient in a vital amino acid, lysine iirc. The MesoAmerica varieties were just as deficient as the varieties that moved north.
2) even if they had beans, which Im not sure of, that doesnt replenish the soil fast enough. Iroquoian towns had to move to virgin soil every 20 years or so, as the soil nutrients got depleted, for example.
3) the Mississippian cultures with cities and massive ceremonial complexes couldnt be moved, so the soil got poorer and poorer. Skeletons from later years show significant malnutrition.
What they really need is domestic animal, preferably draft animals, to manure tne fields and restore fertility.
that's true... people tend to forget about the use of manure for keeping fields fertile. And one more reason why the Fertile Crescent was such a bonanza, having easy to domesticate plants and big animals both, all handy in one spot. Thus, a 'river valley civilization' that has only domestic plants may not do so well...
Driftless
Donor
Mississipian Fertilizer/Manure sources
To be sure, large animals would be needed to produce sufficient volume of manure - for larger fields. Bison would seem to be the primary choice for attempted domestication for North America. Elk had a much wider range historically than today, and they could have been domesticated. Both are raised commercially nowdays on farms, but they are a handful to maintain...
Another option for a source for fertilizing manure for the smaller fields/large gardens - bird manure: http://seattletilth.org/learn/resources-1/city-chickens/compostingchickenmanure
It's modern method, but the principle is ancient. Contained, domesticated turkeys, grouse, ducks, geese, quail, and maybe other birds could have filled the bill. Another benefit of using domesticated birds in some crops, is that they eat bugs, while not destroying the plants...
To be sure, large animals would be needed to produce sufficient volume of manure - for larger fields. Bison would seem to be the primary choice for attempted domestication for North America. Elk had a much wider range historically than today, and they could have been domesticated. Both are raised commercially nowdays on farms, but they are a handful to maintain...
Another option for a source for fertilizing manure for the smaller fields/large gardens - bird manure: http://seattletilth.org/learn/resources-1/city-chickens/compostingchickenmanure
It's modern method, but the principle is ancient. Contained, domesticated turkeys, grouse, ducks, geese, quail, and maybe other birds could have filled the bill. Another benefit of using domesticated birds in some crops, is that they eat bugs, while not destroying the plants...
Given the presence of maize, manioc, savages llamas, fish and the proximity to Peru and the Andean area, which could give others plants and animals, could a civilization have developped in the Rio de la Plata?
Can the use of the guano of the turkeys and the excrement of the llamas be used to fertilize fields?
Can the use of the guano of the turkeys and the excrement of the llamas be used to fertilize fields?
Driftless
Donor
Guano from most animals with a plant diet works well as fertilzer. Often it needs to age a bit, otherwise the ammonia has a detrimental effect.
Poop from Carnivores, not so well....
I'm not calling this bullshit by any means, so don't take this that way, but I need to see more evidence. Domestic animals of course would be a major boon in stabilizing and enhancing agriculture, it goes without saying, but by this logic this would mean that the urban societies of Mesoamerica couldn't exist either. So I'm doing research on this myself, and any sources you could provide would be helpful.
But the societies of Mesoamerica DID have draft animals to provide manure.
Also, the Eurasian grasses (wheat, barley, oats) are more balanced in amino acids than Maize is.
And, it's simple historical fact that the Haudenosaunee had to move their town sites every generation or so because the fertility of the land got depleted.
Edit:
some links
http://books.google.com/books?id=Co...=onepage&q=malnutrition mound builder&f=false
http://www.yelp.com/biz/cahokia-mounds-historic-site-collinsville
http://www.examiner.com/article/america-s-architectural-heritage-cahokia-national-landmark-part-2
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The problem with what you've quoted, and the example of the agricultural practices of my ancestors doesn't give claim to your conclusion that Mesoamerican strains of maize would drain the soil of nutrients just the same as more northern varieties of the crop. The comparison falls flat because there were larger and longer lasting urban centers from Central Mexico down to Nicaragua. So that's the evidence I'm looking for, not the reason why they failed in OTL and why my peeps had to move around once a generation. That's not what's being questioned.
And the draft animals were what? There were dogs and turkeys, and in some places semi-domesticated deer. Human feces was what was largely used for manure. These same practices and breeds of animals could all be acquired through a stable trade network being developed.
And the draft animals were what? There were dogs and turkeys, and in some places semi-domesticated deer. Human feces was what was largely used for manure. These same practices and breeds of animals could all be acquired through a stable trade network being developed.
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This is true. The Woodland cultures of eastern North America did develop their own form of agriculture independently, but the crops they had were not very reliable - tiny seeds with little output, many of which are irritating to touch and/or are commonly allergenic. Today most of them are regarded as weeds, and the sunflower is the only one with a lasting legacy of success. The only thing the Eastern Agricultural Complex was good for is paving the way for a quick and smooth spread of Mesoamerican agriculture later on.
There's also the wild rice horticulture of the Great Lakes region, but it has an inherently limited range.
I wonder about the role of luck in the acquisition of a good crop package, though - would a few chance evolutionary mutations in local plants give the Woodland peoples a formidable counterpart to corn, wheat, rice, and millet? A better lambsquarters that closer resembles quinoa, a wild rice relative that suits the Southeast as well as the old world rice varieties, a Jerusalem artichoke as bountiful and as easy as the potato? Many timelines come from an alteration of local plant species to give natives something better to work with, bit is it really that easy? Why did the big grains show up where they did and not elsewhere?
Driftless
Donor
Wild Rice (Zizania) is nutritious, high in protein & fiber. The Ojibwe harvested on the lakes, but never as a paddy crop. In modern times, it has been successfully grown in contained paddies, but apparently grows better in moving water.