What if the allies had agreed upon the below? You can fill in yourselves what the zones of influence will be and if there are any occupation zones. And how could this be an option? The POD must be post-1940.
AHC/WI: Different post-WWII Poland and Germany
- Thread starter TheseusDeuteros
- Start date
No way. There is no way that Germany leave this war bigger than it entered (Austria, Alto Adige and Sudetenland). There is no way that Hungary which was an accomplice to almost every German aggression get to keep part of the territory it stole. Germany keeping it's prewar (and pre annexion) territories intact is already hard enough, especially as the allies were at the time fighting a war against prussian militarism (of which nazism was only the latest incarnation), they won't leave the prussian heartland intact. And the Soviet Union won't give back the Ukrainian and Byelorussian territories that the poles acquired in 1919 unless the allies declare war on it and take it by force.
Is it impossible too if you think of PODs that have to do with Hitler dying, the atom bomb etc.?
remember that the there can be a lot of devellopment in between directly post war and modern times. Perhaps the Poles manage for some reson to piss of Stalin more resulting in Stalin wanting a stronger DDR thus bits of the east are retained. The A small Prussia would also be a good idea in the colouration, but these would be independent of each other during Soviet occupation.
Then the West could decide to merge the Austrian occupation zones with the BRD and the Sovjets controllling a small bit also.
the eventually these would reunite to Germany proper.
Then the West could decide to merge the Austrian occupation zones with the BRD and the Sovjets controllling a small bit also.
the eventually these would reunite to Germany proper.
LondoMollari
Banned
I really don't see this happening.
It would require Germany having fought the allies to a stalemate, and in that case, there wouldn't BE any occupation zones.
Originally posted by LondoMollari
Poland had Danzig/Gdańsk and a part of East Prussia. That pretty much rules out German-Allied stalemate. Germany would have not ceded those lands voluntarily. German victory is also out.
Poland has no Upper Silesia and lost some territory to the USSR, at the same time keeping Lvow/Lwów and Vilnius/Wilno.There is an independent Lithuania and Latvia.That rules full Soviet victory out.
Czechoslovakia lost Sudetenland. Allied victory is out.
Hungary is slightly bigger. And what is that small enclave in the middle of Romania with some line connecting it to Hungary?
To be honest I can not think of a scenario which would have ended like that.
Poland had Danzig/Gdańsk and a part of East Prussia. That pretty much rules out German-Allied stalemate. Germany would have not ceded those lands voluntarily. German victory is also out.
Poland has no Upper Silesia and lost some territory to the USSR, at the same time keeping Lvow/Lwów and Vilnius/Wilno.There is an independent Lithuania and Latvia.That rules full Soviet victory out.
Czechoslovakia lost Sudetenland. Allied victory is out.
Hungary is slightly bigger. And what is that small enclave in the middle of Romania with some line connecting it to Hungary?
To be honest I can not think of a scenario which would have ended like that.
Independent Slovakia:
- Split Czechoslovakia can happened if the allies are in control of the Czech part,and the Soviets control the Slovak part.
- Split Czechoslovakia can also happened if one them is neutral,but you need a pod before 1940 (this will probably also work for the bigger Slovakia)
More of Germany remaining German :
- For Sudetenland it can happen if the allies are in control of Czech-part of Czechoslovakia and they decide with it through referendums.
- For more of Germany remaining Germans the continuation of above where the allies have advance more so GDR is move to the east.
or the Soviets wanting a bigger GDR,
and a smaller Poland : Stalin hates the poles more,or the Poles revolt and he decide to punish them.
- Poland with Ukrainian and Belarusian territory can see that happening
- Bigger East Prussia (Kaliningrad ) - same as with bigger GDR,
- Bigger Hungary
If they are seen as a victim the can get some territory (true not every thing in your map ) but there as to be an early then 1940 pod for that.
- Split Czechoslovakia can happened if the allies are in control of the Czech part,and the Soviets control the Slovak part.
- Split Czechoslovakia can also happened if one them is neutral,but you need a pod before 1940 (this will probably also work for the bigger Slovakia)
More of Germany remaining German :
- For Sudetenland it can happen if the allies are in control of Czech-part of Czechoslovakia and they decide with it through referendums.
- For more of Germany remaining Germans the continuation of above where the allies have advance more so GDR is move to the east.
or the Soviets wanting a bigger GDR,
and a smaller Poland : Stalin hates the poles more,or the Poles revolt and he decide to punish them.
- Poland with Ukrainian and Belarusian territory can see that happening
- Bigger East Prussia (Kaliningrad ) - same as with bigger GDR,
- Bigger Hungary
If they are seen as a victim the can get some territory (true not every thing in your map ) but there as to be an early then 1940 pod for that.
Maybe quid pro quo?
True.
True, but they did not loose much though. Largely based on an ethnic map, by the way.
Eh, no, you can fill in yourselves what happened there. Ignore the Baltic borders. There's no border between Hungary and the USSR either, but that's irrelevant too. You can decide yourself which states are Russian satellite states.
Online a small part of the Sudetenland. This does not mean that the Allies cannot have won. Maybe they give it to Germany after a longer, destructive war, making sure there will not be an angry Germany starting a world war in Europe anymore. Or they want to avoid ethnic clashes or expulsions.
That's Szeklerland. You should know that though
It's majority Hungarian, the line indicates it belongs (as an exclave) to Hungary.Yeah, the Soviet-Allies split seems plausible. But Slovakia isn't bigger though... They had that eastern part before the war in OTL. And in the south some areas have been ceded to Hungary because Hungarians are in strong majorities there.
Good thought!
Yes, that seems plausible.
Well, it isn't so small but I get what you mean.
Okay, but I think East Prussia will just be part of the GDR.
Hmm, but what if they turn sides at some point in the war? Maybe a coup and then start supporting the Allies...?
katchen
Banned
I think I can see how this could happen. There was a Slovakian National Uprising on August 29, 1944. The Nazis put it down. POD, the Russians reinforce this uprising as it provides a gap in Germany's lines. And use Slovakia (basically the Vah Valley between the High and Low Tatra) as a conduit to outflank Hungary and German forces in the South of Poland, attacking in September 1944 both across the Jablunkov Pass to the north (and taking Cracow and Auschwitz early, but not Warsaw yet), Budapest to the south, causing the Hungarians to surrender without much of a fight (IOTL, the Hungarians put up major resistance to the Soviets right up until April 1945, which is one of the reasons they were treated as severely as they were) and to the west, driving on Brunn and Prague.
The result is that when Germany is finally defeated, the Russians not only hold Eastern Germany, but all of Austria as well. So the Russians basically use the Sudetenland to tie Austria and East Germany together in a contiguous occupation zone that becomes a Greater German Demokratik Republik, using the argument that the Austrian Anschluss was perfectly legal when it occurred and should not be reversed just because the Nazis consummated it. Slovakia becomes an independent People's Republic because it got it's independence from the Nazis earlier than the Czechs did and the Russians recognized the new regime in 1944, allowing the Resistance to fight along with the Red Army all the way to Berlin. As did the Hungarians after surrender.
Chances are low for that,one why to boost them is for a communist rebellion in E.P.
katchen and TheseusDeuteros : Now for the coup/upraising
It happened otl in Hungary,but from also otl there was an coup in Romania,but the soviets still considered the Romanians as enemies for a couple of days,and let them fend for them self for while,in mean time Romanians how who surrendered,where treated as enemies and there was upraising in Poland,which the soviets failed (did not want to )
Help so same could happened to the coups/upraising in Slovakia and Hungary they will have to deal with the Germans on there one for a while.
If a pod in 38 is accepted:
for the pod have the Romania intervene and beat the Hungarians in a quick war,after the first Vienna award when Republic of Carpatho-Ukraine (Ruthenia) proclaim here independence,but was annexed by Hungary quickly after that.
- Hungary friend of Germany
- Romania friend of France,but was moving toward Germany and Germany wanted them as friends for oil.
- A soviet union which was opportunistic and wanted the western countries to fight with each other,so chances are slim in my opinion they will start a war with a friend of France while France is alive.
- A France how will not have a problem with one of Germany friends been taken out.
- A Germany how is not yet ready for war,and how will probably get over it in exchange for oil.
Now hungry will no longer be a aggressor in the war but a puppet of Romania so there is a chance they will end with some territorial gains.( Referendums in the Slovakia Hungarian discussed area under German pressure ? )
Some OTL info:
Also Romania had at the time mobilized on the Hungarian border in case the Czechoslovakia decided to fight (so they are there)
-on Ruthenia I heard/read of two version :
-they ask the Romanians for help in the war with Hungary,but there was refuse
-they ask Romania to incorporate them in Romania with autonomy at the time of Vienna award,but again there where refuse,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Carpatho-Ukraine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovak–Hungarian_Warhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovak–Hungarian_War
for the Vojovdina part:
it is give to them by the Germans after the Coup in Yugoslavia,
On how to keep every thing:
- Romania manges to fend off the Soviets or the soviet ultimatum is not given.
- Now OTL Romania had a good chance to give the soviets a good nose bleed,in this TL,Romania benefits from the weapons of the Hungarians army,they don't have to compete with them (Hungry) for German weapons,and probably from Hungary's industry
So the allies will not land in,the soviets don't get in (Romania is able to keep the out),the Germans are withdraw,to fight the soviets advance in Poland.
for the pod have the Romania intervene and beat the Hungarians in a quick war,after the first Vienna award when Republic of Carpatho-Ukraine (Ruthenia) proclaim here independence,but was annexed by Hungary quickly after that.
- Hungary friend of Germany
- Romania friend of France,but was moving toward Germany and Germany wanted them as friends for oil.
- A soviet union which was opportunistic and wanted the western countries to fight with each other,so chances are slim in my opinion they will start a war with a friend of France while France is alive.
- A France how will not have a problem with one of Germany friends been taken out.
- A Germany how is not yet ready for war,and how will probably get over it in exchange for oil.
Now hungry will no longer be a aggressor in the war but a puppet of Romania so there is a chance they will end with some territorial gains.( Referendums in the Slovakia Hungarian discussed area under German pressure ? )
Some OTL info:
Also Romania had at the time mobilized on the Hungarian border in case the Czechoslovakia decided to fight (so they are there)
-on Ruthenia I heard/read of two version :
-they ask the Romanians for help in the war with Hungary,but there was refuse
-they ask Romania to incorporate them in Romania with autonomy at the time of Vienna award,but again there where refuse,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Carpatho-Ukraine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovak–Hungarian_Warhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovak–Hungarian_War
for the Vojovdina part:
it is give to them by the Germans after the Coup in Yugoslavia,
On how to keep every thing:
- Romania manges to fend off the Soviets or the soviet ultimatum is not given.
- Now OTL Romania had a good chance to give the soviets a good nose bleed,in this TL,Romania benefits from the weapons of the Hungarians army,they don't have to compete with them (Hungry) for German weapons,and probably from Hungary's industry
So the allies will not land in,the soviets don't get in (Romania is able to keep the out),the Germans are withdraw,to fight the soviets advance in Poland.