AHC/WI: China and Rome switch fates after Migration period

Okay, I know this topic was discussed several times, but I would like to start a new one because I came here relatively new.
Basically, after the POD of 3rd century, I am wondering how to make China collapsed, broken into multiple countries, and never to reunite after invasion of barbarians, while Roman Empire to be reunified and successfully "Romanized" invading barbarians multiple times after its Western part fell (so it's not like Western Rome never fell kind of thing). My goal is to make a world look like this or this, or maybe this.

Single POD is great, but multiple PODs are welcome, too.
Bonus points if former Rome was reunified by barbarians (maybe one of Germanic tribes).

Here is my take, but I’m worried whether it ignores plausibility.
POD 1( for Rome): After 3rd century crisis, Rome never adopts Christianity. Imperial power is supported by more of an Imperial cult and bureaucracy. Later, when Romanized Germanic people took over bureaucratic system, they reunify former Mediterranean and Europe with ease compared to OTL, thanks to no Pope blocking imperial powers.

POD 2( for China): War of the Eight Princes never happened, so Jin dynasty spends relative peace for short time, only to be invaded by steppe nomads. But this time, Fengjian, or Chinese feudal system is not discredited so much, so steppe nomads adopt this custom. When they knew this is not good for reunifying former China, this system was too accustomed to put an end to it.
 
Late pod Justinian either dies or after the vandals are taken out he for some reason doesn't go for Italy this leaves the Ostrogothic kingdom to recover from it's succession crisis following the death of theodoric the great like the barberíans that take over china in time the Ostrogothic kingdom becomes the wre and possibly reunites other regions like parts of hispania and southern gaul for China have the sui not unify it continuing the south nothern divide that existed for centuries by this point
 
My theory for why Rome didn't reform by China did is as follows: To maintain a strong, central bureaucracy, you need a certain amount of population surplus. In China, the starting population was higher than in Europe, meaning that, even after all the casualties caused by the fall of the Han dynasty, there were enough people left to maintain a centralised bureaucratic state. In contrast, Europe never had as big a population: even at its height the Roman Empire wasn't as bureaucratised as China, and after the fall, population decline meant there was no prospect of maintaining anything above a very rudimentary bureaucracy. Hence European monarchs had to rule their realms in a much more decentralised way, which eventually evolved into the feudal system. Since feudalism is based on personal relationships, however, there's a limit to how big any feudal state can get, and any states which get bigger than this limit tend to fragment again -- witness the Frankish Empire, for example, or the Holy Roman Emperors' difficulties in keeping control of both Germany and Italy. By the time European states began redeveloping big bureaucracies in the early modern period, Europe's national divisions were so ingrained that any attempts to reunite the continent would lead to insuperable opposition.

So, to get Europe into a more Chinese pattern, I'd recommend increasing the continent's population density. Maybe an earlier invention of the heavy plough could do this, by enabling more land to be cultivated, and hence increasing the amount of food available. As for China, you could reduce its population density to something like late antique European levels to kill off the bureaucratic state, though unfortunately I don't know enough about Chinese agriculture to say how you might do this.
 
Hence European monarchs had to rule their realms in a much more decentralised way,
This depended a lot on were the vandals, Ostrogoths and Visigoths were centralized and very much becoming latin as they were a tiny minority in a sea of Romans before the Arab conquest the Visigoths elite and the locals were forming their own group the growth of feudalism to well everywhere in Europe is not inevitable as mentioned Ostrogothic Italy was closer to the byzantines than early medieval France
 
Late pod Justinian either dies or after the vandals are taken out he for some reason doesn't go for Italy this leaves the Ostrogothic kingdom to recover from it's succession crisis following the death of theodoric the great like the barberíans that take over china in time the Ostrogothic kingdom becomes the wre and possibly reunites other regions like parts of hispania and southern gaul for China have the sui not unify it continuing the south nothern divide that existed for centuries by this point
Ostrogothic kingdom can be helpful. Do you know any TL that Ostrogoths restored WRE( in some way) ?
For Sui to not reunify China, there was a resistance toward Yang Jing seizing power. But I'm not confident whether they succeed does guarantee North-South divide continuous.
So, to get Europe into a more Chinese pattern, I'd recommend increasing the continent's population density. Maybe an earlier invention of the heavy plough could do this, by enabling more land to be cultivated, and hence increasing the amount of food available. As for China, you could reduce its population density to something like late antique European levels to kill off the bureaucratic state, though unfortunately I don't know enough about Chinese agriculture to say how you might do this.
I'm not an expert of agricultural history, but this seems very interesting. It is said that China used a kind of heavy plough from Han dynasty, so would bring the plough from China or other areas might qualify? On China, maybe steppe nomads just try to convert Chinese farmland into grasslands (which I recall it was proposed during Mongol empire's conquest but stopped by Yelü Chucai in otl) or, destroy the flood control system during North-South split so Yellow River floods more often, causing inefficient agricultural production. Both seems ASB-ish, though.
 
This depended a lot on were the vandals, Ostrogoths and Visigoths were centralized and very much becoming latin as they were a tiny minority in a sea of Romans before the Arab conquest the Visigoths elite and the locals were forming their own group the growth of feudalism to well everywhere in Europe is not inevitable as mentioned Ostrogothic Italy was closer to the byzantines than early medieval France
Ostrogothic Italy was closer to Byzantium than to France, but it was still a long way from China.
I'm not an expert of agricultural history, but this seems very interesting. It is said that China used a kind of heavy plough from Han dynasty, so would bring the plough from China or other areas might qualify? On China, maybe steppe nomads just try to convert Chinese farmland into grasslands (which I recall it was proposed during Mongol empire's conquest but stopped by Yelü Chucai in otl) or, destroy the flood control system during North-South split so Yellow River floods more often, causing inefficient agricultural production. Both seems ASB-ish, though.
Supposedly parts of Iran and Iraq never recovered from the Mongols' destruction of their ancient irrigation systems, so in principle it can be done. I'm not sure if it would work in China specifically, though, due to climactic differences.
 
Ostrogothic Italy was closer to Byzantium than to France, but it was still a long way from China.
Yeah but he is not asking them to become china rather like china have a united state survive Ostrogothic Italy could have gotten many parts of the old western roman empire and essentially restore it while not fully it would include dalmatia, Italy and possibly large chunks of hispania
 
Sorry, I maybe mislead you guys. I never thought that Ostrogothic Italy can directly evolve to autocratic dynasty similar to China. But I thought they could set some kind of precedents like "long divided must unite" belief or something.
It is said that in China, the autocratic emperor never came before Song dynasty. Before then, the power was divided between emperors and his vassals (specifically, nobles and warlords such as Jiedushi. I once thought of combining these two so they may able to evolve into feudal lords or something, but that's another question). Even though, there was a movement to make autocratic bureaucracy during Tang dynasty by beginning of civil service examination. Could Ostrogothic Italy or other successor states of Rome implement such system?
 
My theory for why Rome didn't reform by China did is as follows: To maintain a strong, central bureaucracy, you need a certain amount of population surplus. In China, the starting population was higher than in Europe, meaning that, even after all the casualties caused by the fall of the Han dynasty, there were enough people left to maintain a centralised bureaucratic state. In contrast, Europe never had as big a population: even at its height the Roman Empire wasn't as bureaucratised as China, and after the fall, population decline meant there was no prospect of maintaining anything above a very rudimentary bureaucracy. Hence European monarchs had to rule their realms in a much more decentralised way, which eventually evolved into the feudal system. Since feudalism is based on personal relationships, however, there's a limit to how big any feudal state can get, and any states which get bigger than this limit tend to fragment again -- witness the Frankish Empire, for example, or the Holy Roman Emperors' difficulties in keeping control of both Germany and Italy. By the time European states began redeveloping big bureaucracies in the early modern period, Europe's national divisions were so ingrained that any attempts to reunite the continent would lead to insuperable opposition.

So, to get Europe into a more Chinese pattern, I'd recommend increasing the continent's population density. Maybe an earlier invention of the heavy plough could do this, by enabling more land to be cultivated, and hence increasing the amount of food available. As for China, you could reduce its population density to something like late antique European levels to kill off the bureaucratic state, though unfortunately I don't know enough about Chinese agriculture to say how you might do this.

I think running counter to this idea is simply that High Medieval European population was larger than the population that the Great Han had to bear, yet they did not bureaucratize (aside for the Holy See) in the way that you may imply. Europe was ideologically and theoretically unified under universalist thinking under the umbrella of the Holy Roman Empire and the Papacy during the Middle Ages, but practical decentralization and conflicts between the Papacy, Emperor and the vassals impeded a provincial system as expected during the Roman Empire.

We should also mention, just because the Great Qing or Great Ming have a unified central court and a system of provinces, does not mean it was a more centralized country. In many ways and indeed most ways, Chinese Confucian empires were more decentralized than many of the kingdoms and states of Europe in 1200. Chinese 'empire' so to speak existed constantly under an aegis of near incomprehensible decentralization to our modern mind. Vast territorial expanse, intransigent minority populations (far exceeding the population diversity of western europe), political systems which promoted decentralization via tax farming corruption, and isolated imperial personages made most Chinese regimes in the pre-modern (and modern!) essentially a game of passivity, only taking actions when absolutely necessary. We should note that the Tang Dynasty for instance, often seen as the most centralized Chinese state (aside for the Great Song), had even during the Kaiyuan Era (Xuantong years 713-741) only marginal control over the provincial governors and tax revenue remained very low.

As a further example, the Kaiyuan Emperor (Xuantong) was frequently decreeing armies to travel forth and suppress the 'Tibetan Menace' in the Tarim and to 'Expel the Barbarians.' Fanciful names were developed by the Kaiyuan Emperor such as 'Expeditionary Force to Pacify the Tibetan Menace' and so forth and these expeditions would be dispatched but the orders would simply be disregarded based on the situation. Many expeditions were declared and if the local officials disagreed, it simply fizzled out and the Central Court would gloss over it by saying they had decided not to do so and to wait and or that an edict has been released decreeing the victory of so and so campaign that did not even start. This is not that dissimilar to the situation we see in Europe, both from the Crusader calls of the Papacy and from European monarchs having to attain consent to launch campaigns and if they could not, focusing on something else (Pope Innocent III when crusade efforts went poorly or failed to form as planned [4th Crusade!], he simply went on to another topic and glossed over and ignored the mistake of the past). Kaiyuan Emperor as another example struggled to control the military affairs of his empire, despite the unified central court; military generals often made their own treaties with foreign barbarians on the frontiers, collected taxes and did essentially as they pleased. Kaiyuan not only allowed this military isolationism to occur, but it was official policy of the Great Tang to allow the generals appointed by the court to make their own peace treaties under the guise of the Great Tang and to give free hands to all military officials on the frontiers. In many ways this is a far more pernicious form of decentralization than anything that occurred in Western Europe during the High Middle Ages... This though is not to confer negatives upon Kaiyuan or the Great Tang, but a statement that large universal empires are by their nature and design, at least usually, decentralized to a large degree.


Ostrogothic Italy was closer to Byzantium than to France, but it was still a long way from China.
You are right, China was more decentralized. The Great Tang had these large bureaucracies and provincial magistrates who essentially were strongmen by design who enforced palace edicts however they wished and the palace quite literally often lacked information or understanding of if their decrees were enforced the way that they wished. There is a reason that in Japan the Tang-style reforms rapidly devolved into the Heian Period, one where, yes, we have a great and magnificent central court but the whole country is essentially independent from it defacto. The fact that we do not look at Europe in similar veins speaks more to our own bias and cultural attuning to nationalism and nationalist aspirations as opposed to a reality of history, but that is a different topic.
 
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Sorry, I maybe mislead you guys. I never thought that Ostrogothic Italy can directly evolve to autocratic dynasty similar to China. But I thought they could set some kind of precedents like "long divided must unite" belief or something
Assuming the Ostrogothic rule becomes actually recognized by the east it sets a presedent that western power could In theory take over and have the byzantine recognize it of course the idea there was just one empire and the idea would the neo hre and the ere are just one empire ruled by two emeprors now you get the east to recognize the goths as the western Roman empire would be a challenge but victories and them leaving arianism and marrying the byzantine royal family its possible
 
I'm going to put forward an idea I rarely see discussed but think may have some merit.

There is a legacy of a great Mediterranean superpower- Rome- that tied together everyone in a massive civilization. We can call this analogous to China.

But there is another legacy- a far older one. Stretching back to the days of Ancient Assyria, a single power has united much of Mesopotamia and the Eastern Mediterranean into a superpower of its own. There is a long history here, continued by the Persians and even Alexander's Empire. This idea runs directly counter to the idea of a great Mediterranean Empire- the two cannot easily coexist.

Both ideas are supported by the geography of the region, which encourages each to unite. Both Mesopotamia and the Eastern Mediterranean facilitate easy transportation and communication, allowing an Empire. Both have cultures set to do just this, and structures set up that allow it.

The two ideas clashed repeatedly. Look no further than the Eternal War- a Roman Empire under Justinian and successors that yes, struggled with barbarians and plague, but was never threatend by them on the level of the Persians. Then, even after defeating them, a new empire formed in the Arabs and came to realize the Persian ambition of dominating the Eastern Mediterranean, while a remnant of the Roman idea held out in Byzantium.

There is no such analogy in China. There is one great state with one great history and no great rivals. And I would like to put forward the idea that this is the reason China stayed united, and Rome did not. Yes, the migration of nomadic and tribal groups were a constant threat. But they never were a true cultural rival to the Romans. Only due to the intervention of first the Persians and then the Arabs were the very powerful remnants of the Romans- who otherwise stood a good chance to reunite the entire Mediterranean- distracted and stopped, which eventually allowed the former barbarians to begin developing their own cultures and traditions.
 
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Both ideas are supported by the geography of the region, which encourages each to unite.
I'm not sure this is true in the case of the Mediterranean, TBH. Yes, the sea encourages peaceful trade and communication and makes it easier to hold an empire together, but it makes the initial conquest harder, because in addition to an army you now need a navy to move it there, which can easily double or triple the resources required. Which might explain why the Middle East was united more than the Mediterranean, but the individual Middle Eastern Empires didn't generally last as long as the Roman.
 
I'm not sure this is true in the case of the Mediterranean, TBH. Yes, the sea encourages peaceful trade and communication and makes it easier to hold an empire together, but it makes the initial conquest harder, because in addition to an army you now need a navy to move it there, which can easily double or triple the resources required. Which might explain why the Middle East was united more than the Mediterranean, but the individual Middle Eastern Empires didn't generally last as long as the Roman.
That's a good point. I was thinking about this further, and the Roman Empire, despite lasting such a long time, was never really replicated in its feat of uniting that geography. The Ottomans were closest, but had more in common with the Empire of Alexander or the Arabs in geographic extent, not the Romans/Byzantines. So they may be considered more of a "near east" state.

It highlights the enormity of the feat the Romans accomplished.
 
I'm going to put forward an idea I rarely see discussed but think may have some merit.

There is a legacy of a great Mediterranean superpower- Rome- that tied together everyone in a massive civilization. We can call this analogous to China.

But there is another legacy- a far older one. Stretching back to the days of Ancient Assyria, a single power has united much of Mesopotamia and the Eastern Mediterranean into a superpower of its own. There is a long history here, continued by the Persians and even Alexander's Empire. This idea runs directly counter to the idea of a great Mediterranean Empire- the two cannot easily coexist.

Both ideas are supported by the geography of the region, which encourages each to unite. Both Mesopotamia and the Eastern Mediterranean facilitate easy transportation and communication, allowing an Empire. Both have cultures set to do just this, and structures set up that allow it.

The two ideas clashed repeatedly. Look no further than the Eternal War- a Roman Empire under Justinian and successors that yes, struggled with barbarians and plague, but was never threatend by them on the level of the Persians. Then, even after defeating them, a new empire formed in the Arabs and came to realize the Persian ambition of dominating the Eastern Mediterranean, while a remnant of the Roman idea held out in Byzantium.

There is no such analogy in China. There is one great state with one great history and no great rivals. And I would like to put forward the idea that this is the reason China stayed united, and Rome did not. Yes, the migration of nomadic and tribal groups were a constant threat. But they never were a true cultural rival to the Romans. Only due to the intervention of first the Persians and then the Arabs were the very powerful remnants of the Romans- who otherwise stood a good chance to reunite the entire Mediterranean- distracted and stopped, which eventually allowed the former barbarians to begin developing their own cultures and traditions.
Hm.

Following this train of thought... Rome isn't China... Rome is actually Japan. Except more contained. :p

China is Persia/alt-Palmyra more than Rome.
 
I'm going to put forward an idea I rarely see discussed but think may have some merit.

There is a legacy of a great Mediterranean superpower- Rome- that tied together everyone in a massive civilization. We can call this analogous to China.

But there is another legacy- a far older one. Stretching back to the days of Ancient Assyria, a single power has united much of Mesopotamia and the Eastern Mediterranean into a superpower of its own. There is a long history here, continued by the Persians and even Alexander's Empire. This idea runs directly counter to the idea of a great Mediterranean Empire- the two cannot easily coexist.

Both ideas are supported by the geography of the region, which encourages each to unite. Both Mesopotamia and the Eastern Mediterranean facilitate easy transportation and communication, allowing an Empire. Both have cultures set to do just this, and structures set up that allow it.

The two ideas clashed repeatedly. Look no further than the Eternal War- a Roman Empire under Justinian and successors that yes, struggled with barbarians and plague, but was never threatend by them on the level of the Persians. Then, even after defeating them, a new empire formed in the Arabs and came to realize the Persian ambition of dominating the Eastern Mediterranean, while a remnant of the Roman idea held out in Byzantium.

There is no such analogy in China. There is one great state with one great history and no great rivals. And I would like to put forward the idea that this is the reason China stayed united, and Rome did not. Yes, the migration of nomadic and tribal groups were a constant threat. But they never were a true cultural rival to the Romans. Only due to the intervention of first the Persians and then the Arabs were the very powerful remnants of the Romans- who otherwise stood a good chance to reunite the entire Mediterranean- distracted and stopped, which eventually allowed the former barbarians to begin developing their own cultures and traditions.

While I think that you are using some good reasoning, I would have to disagree with you on some matters here and clarify things relating to Chinese and Near Eastern history, culture and geography.

1. A Mesopotamian 'Empire:'

While the geography of Mesopotamia may seem to an onlooker in the recent era to be a place that is both easy to unite on account of flat terrain and rivers, this is not necessarily the case bore out in fact. You spoke of the Assyrian 'empire' and its formation of an empire and that this was in a sort of succession of unification in Mesopotamia. One matter that must be clarified, this process of unification in Assyria was far, far more difficult that what is assumed and geographic features played little to no role in aiding Assyrian expansionism in the region. Assyrian expansion was further unaided by riverways, as the rivers by the time of imperialistic Assyria during the reign of Shalmaneser I (1273-1243 BCE) were contested by multiple powerful realms; the Kassite kingdom of Karduniash ruling from Babylon, the Mitanni realms based from Washukanni and then the many decentralized vassals or tribal states affiliated with the Hittites. Assyria would manage in the later realm of Shalmaneser I to conquer Mitanni and then under his son Tukulti-Ninurta I (1243-1204 BCE) asserted a brief hegemony over Karduniash to the south (Babylonia). However, these conquests were quickly overturned, not just once after the death of Tukulti-Ninurta I but also under the many periods of Assyrian hegemony where local people broke from Assyrian rule rapidly. During the reigns of the following Assyrian kings, we have the collapse of the Assyrian kingdom outside of its heartland in Assyria: Tukulti-Ninurta (1243-1204 BCE), Assur-Resh-Ishie (1132-1115 BCE)/Tiglath-Pileser I (1115-1076 BCE), Adad-Nirari III (811-783 BCE), Tiglath-Pileser III (745-727 BCE), Shalmaneser V (727-722 BCE), Sargon II (722-705 BCE), Assurbanipal (669-631 or 627 BCE). This ebb and flow describes an empire which is, without a doubt, unstable in terms of its consistent grasp on exterior territories.

All people agree that the Assyrian kingdom had an issue with stability outside of its core heartland but the question is why is this the case? In order for us to understand this matter, it is important to consider what the Assyrians themselves thought, which is an important endeavor. Assyrian royal dogma was that pastoralist peoples were not truly human, especially those pastoralists that resided outside of the dominion of Assyria. Assyrian view was clear-cut, all humans must exist withing the 'Bronze Age framework' that is submission to a monarch, a complex centralized temple system, intensive agriculture along river ways, intense state management of irrigation networks and adherence to a sort of devoted polytheism. Attempts were made to enforce agriculture upon their domains constantly through the banning of fruit trees, the forcible deportation of pastoral people, re-education through assimilation programs and intense irrigation funding by the state. Intense effort was made to correct what was seen by Assyria as a divine evil of pastoral nomadism and 'the men who act as ibex,' and more than most states that have existed in pre-modern times, Assyria was a hyper-centralized state with all the necessary organs to do so. Here we see that the Assyrians, while possessing a cultural-religious aversion to the tribalistic peoples of the Middle East, their reasoning derives from a political goal, an understanding of population management.

The pastoralist peoples were noted by Assyria as possessing deep tribalistic loyalties that override the submission to the divine cult of Assyria and the state itself, an organ of the Great Gods of the Lands. Pastoral peoples held deep familial connections that weakened state loyalties, they were mobile and hence able to avoid state officials, they were warlike and could devastate sedentary militia (hence the creation of professional and noble elite armies in Assyria), and finally their economic practices implied a counter to the Assyrian irrigation networks which relied on sedentary farming and not stripping the land with goats, sheep and other cattle alongside seasonal farming and date collection (which destroyed the Assyrian farmlands and when Assur-Dan II (934-911 BCE) begins his reconquests, he laments the pastoral ibex destroying the farmlands with their goats, cattle and sheep). We see thus the reason for Assyrian instability in control, at least the most principle one...

Wherever Assyrian hegemony stretched in the Middle East, they were harried, not by external foes always, but by a fifth column of unmanageable warlike pastoral tribes that, taking advantage of the arid climate for which they were more well adapted to than the Assyrians (and by extension their entire Bronze Age Mesopotamian cultural complex), resisted, upturned and destroyed Assyrian hegemony wherever they existed. Cities in Syria that otherwise were submissive found their allies in these tribes that beckoned for war against the Assyrians, the otherwise rich and fertile Babylonia was paralyzed by tribal infighting and dominion outside of the cities and in the interior of the region (away from rivers), and the mobile pastoralists could outmaneuver the Assyrian war machine. Assyrian efforts to maintain their empire was in spite of an existing geography, which, not only supported pastoral nomads, also directly countered the notion of a centralized empire by disrupting the economic, cultural and societal expansions needed for a centralized sedentary empire and instead the geography sired a more popularly aggressive tribalistic pastoral group(s).


2. Geography of an Empire --- Middle East

As mentioned previously, the creation of stable centralized empires is made difficult where we have certain geographic features, this is always agreed upon. From the Assyrian standpoint, this holds true, as the arid climate preferred the creation and propagation of pastoral people groups who, by their cultural and economic lifestyle, could not be assimilated to the sedentary imperialistic Assyrian state structure. However, does this situation hold true across other empires that would develop in the region? The answer is an emphatic yes, but these empires would progressively adopt decentralized methods to try and assuage the geographic tendencies of the Middle East towards disintegrating effective state power.

All empires that existed with a base of operation in the Middle East showed signs of weakness in relation to the geography, which, though flat and navigable, also promotes lifestyles that ultimately run counter to imperialistic ambitions (and to a far greater degree than in Europe!). The Achaemenid empire had to combat frequent rebellions from the Aramaic/Arab tribes across the Middle East and maintained stiff garrisons in order to keep the order in addition to decentralizing the empire where necessary so as to limit problems (and a large percentage of the population in the Mid East under Achaemnid rule likely never paid taxes or dues or any kind of regulatory amount due to the mobility of much of the populace). The Arsacid hegemony (Parthian empire), was very decentralized and ruled the Middle Eastern lands through proxy and series of tributaries, both on account of the nomadic descent of the Arsacid themselves but also a realization of the geographic and cultural situation of the Middle East. Sassanid centralization was attempted and succeeded in part, but Sassanid Mesopotamia was constantly hampered by Arab raiders, Arab rebels, Arab tax evasion, depletion of farmlands and its conversion to pastures and this is not mentioning the high levels of decentralization in Iran itself under the Great Houses. The varied iterations of the Islamic Caliphate were plagued by pastoral nomadism which contributed to rebellions, sectarian conflict and ultimately, the collapse of the Abbasid hegemony. Subsequent states in the Middle East were less large or utilized a sort of high level of decentralization in relation to large swathes of the population, but in the same vein, these regions suffered consistent problems related to the geography promoting nomadic or pastoral lifestyles which in turn played a major role in disintegrating imperialistic ambitions.

In brief, the geography of the Middle East does not suggest a unification of powerful empires, but instead suggests a difficult situation for long term empires, unless they develop from a nomadic background and or have a very particular method to maintain stability within the region. Thus, the region of the Middle East and its geography does not lend itself towards imperialism, but instead towards state fragmentation and the creation of mini-tribal domains and or city states between desert and riverways.


3. Sassanid goals and Succession with the Abbasid or Umayyad Caliphates as geopolitical terms

The Sassanid empire, generally, aside for the dreams of a few Sassanid monarchs such as Kavadh (488-531) and Khosrau II (590-628) do we see the concept of 'dominating the Eastern Mediterranean' or 'restoring Persian borders.' Rather, the Sassanid modus operandi was exactly the same as that of the Arsacid before them: raid the west, defend/expand in the east. Geopolitical concerns work both ways, and the Sassanid empire was more harried to the east than to the west and the west was utilized as a zone of loot for which the Great King could gain glory and more importantly, distribute loot to the Great Houses whose exalted royal leadership viewed as their birthright. Note Shapur I (240-270) and Shapur II (309-379) both, despite gaining huge victories over Rome in the field and essentially having the means to conquer Syria then and there, essentially just formed baggage trains of loot, dismantled forts and then returned in haste to their lands acting as if it was a grand victory. The reasons for this is clear; the Great Houses which monopolized enormous power in the affairs of Eranshahr had little interest in the situation in Syria except that it could grant them booty and glory. Rather, the Great Houses had their eyes turned east towards the varied number of easterly threats and acquisitions, the Kushan empire, the Kidarites, the Alchon huna, the Hepthalites, the Celestial Turks and so on and on. Threats emerging from the east and the petty particularism of the Great Houses limited any idea of ruling Syria or the Levant to develop as an official policy of the Sassanid empire except in its late and declining phases where the bond between the Great Houses and the Sassanid court had all but died. Western perceptions of the geopolitical role of the Sassanids derived ultimately from propaganda developed and curated by the Greco-Roman world of a great oriental threat, but in reality the threat of the 'orient' was relatively mild, whereas the real threats existed internally and or to the north where Roman meddling created more militaristic societies and increasingly more sophisticated cultural traditions in threat to Rome amongst the Germanic and Sarmatian peoples.


The Arab imperial complexes called the Umayyad and Abbasid caliphate formed a totally different geopolitical and cultural iteration as the Iranian powers. These Arab realms and their expansion was one of a victory of the tribalistic and pastoral populaces over the settled sedentary and more centralized empires of the region. Islam itself promoted a decentralized governance and freedom of movement for the Arabs, combining this with economic success of Arabs that is aided by Sharia law, the Arabs quickly became a majority across the region. Arab victories militarily thus heralded economic, cultural and societal changes that were a long time coming but had been halted by governance by exterior empires such as the Sassanid or the Roman empires. Arab rule amounted to the expansion of a new order of the regions that they touched, one upheld by decentralized governance and an expansion (perhaps inadvertently) of the Arab pastoralist economic and social pattern, alongside the development of city states which act as way stations for these moving tribal populaces. Certainly, the Romans could not truly pinpoint or recognize the reason Islam and its rapid expansion was so successful and popular and hence they double-downed on their existing propaganda of a great oriental threat.

As an addendum, it is important to note the difference in imperialism of the Arabo-Islamic states and that of the Sassanid empire. Sassanid kings were Great King of Kings, rulers of the whole world, universal monarchs and their rule was justified by an aura of kings which was bestowed upon them by heaven. Their empire was defined not by culture, religion, common values or such, but overall submission and orbit around this King of Kings. In a sense, the Eranshahr was a form of Middle Kingdom likened to China, with the same kind of exterior-barbarian dichotomy. Sassanid universal dominion was also not something to be truly enforced externally, but rather was a point of internal stability and propaganda as 'world rulers.' Hence, Sassanid monarchs were at peace with ceremonially ruling the entire planet by having effigies of other lands created and made to prostrate to the Great King, which in turn it was assumed metaphorically placed the entire lands under the great King (similar rituals were practiced by the Assyrians). Abbasid rule by comparison was the opposite. Islamic universal empire is based less around the monarch as a factor in unification but rather about the unification around 'sharia law.' Islamic scholars of the past were clear, dar al-Islam is where the Sharia is enforced and not necessarily that placed where the Caliph or monarch rules. As such, Islamic hegemony as it developed was one where we have an expanding metaphorical or unseen realm of sharia law within Islam that in turn has aspects and benefits to the people who adopt it and this was ultimately the goal and ambition it would seem of the Islamic movement. Abbasid caliphs attempted to change this situation but their attempts were for naught as the Abbasid hegemony rapidly collapsed after only a century of attempting to develop a universal monarchy-like system.

4. Lack of competition as a reason for Chinese continued empire.

Until the Great Qing, the Chinese geopolitical entity was always arrayed against heavy competition and competing imperial designs. Contrary to popular view that China essentially sat upon a hill without competition in perpetual bliss, is a development and perception gained from the real status of the Great Qing who, through innovation ideologically and military prowess, managed to subdue the western and southern barbarians across Asia and subdue competing political and imperial claims. Chinese notions of supremacy derive from their perceived status as the developers of a harmonious civility within a Middle Kingdom enunciated in the Confucian classics and their commentaries, which do not illustrate the real status of the exterior peoples to China, but rather speak to the internal propaganda of thinkers in the Spring and Autumn Period or the Warring States Period. Confucius and his successors like Mencius and Xunzi, believed that China had declined from a supposed period of harmony, utmost etiquette and civility and the foreign barbarian was used as a counter to this created ancient Chinese custom and ritual that was displayed in the Rites of Zhou. This comparison to foreign barbarians would also be a means by which to convince local Chinese feudal lords of their ideals, for not being Confucian was to emulate the foreigners, who, in the xenophobic culture of China at the time, was a serious slight.

Rather, China had serious opposition to its exterior. The Confucian concept of a passive Middle Kingdom that develops a harmonious interior of inward perfection and practices wu-wei (active passivity) in foreign diplomacy would be counteracted by many different new notions of empire consistently across Chinese history. The nomadic empires of the steppe developed uniquely in the region as a competing universal empire to that of the Chinese Middle State, and one that was successful at opposing it. Xiongnu, Rouran, Celestial Turks, Qara-Khitan, Jurchen Later Jin, the Mongol empire(s), and finally China itself was submerged or otherwise morphed into the universalistic ambitions of the Aisin Gioro clan whose empire was that of the Great Qing, something both Chinese and yet something totally different entirely otherwise. Tibetan imperialistic claims also for a period challenged and outdid the Chinese, Goguryeo of Korea was able to do so and Japan at various periods combatted with Chinese notions of the Middle State. Excluding from this was the recalcitrant cultures who resisted Chinese hegemony in both economic, cultural and military affairs, such as the Tocharians (who created their own geopolitical model of city state alliances that had a symbiotic relationship with powerful steppe universal empires such as the Celestial Turks and Rouran). Let us discuss slightly in depth what I mean....

We could argue the imperialistic dominion of China to have reached its pinnacle (excluding the Great Qing) during the Great Tang, whose imperial gains extended furthest and who held very close to Confucian dogma of the Middle State and notions of superiority of Chinese culture and civility. Great Tang power began on rickety legs as the Great Tang began as a tributary and vassal to the universalist Celestial Turk empire which ruled most of the steppe at the time. Successful divide and conquer strategies and effective military campaigns would allow the Tang to dismantle the Eastern Turks and wage a continuous war with the Turkic successors who consistently attempted to either ingratiate themselves to Chinese order or recreate and the prior situation of a universal nomadic steppe empire ala the Xiongnu or the Celestial Turks. Tang success in the region however was very short term and rapidly the Tang found themselves assailed from the southwest by the Tibetan empire which, formed a counter imperialistic concept and hegemony, calling themselves equals to China. Likewise, Chinese vassals in the Tarim were treacherous and rebelled constantly and attempted to form netowrks of alliances with their neighbors and or play the varied empires against each other. Tang also had serious competitors in Goguryeo in Korea-Manchuria and Japan (which at the time exerted inordinate power over southern Korea and whose pirates raided the coasts of China).

The Tang would have a two-fold strategy in dealing with exterior opponents. Central court policy was to 'educate' the exterior barbarians in Confucianism and in civility and that with this education, these people would eventually, indeed inevitably integrate and submit to the sage-king, the Son of Heaven ruling from Chang'an. Such pretenses woudl be very poorly received and instead, Chinese education of exterior peoples would lead to these people creating counter narratives to Chinese hegemony and developing their own version of the Middle Kingdom (such as Japan, Goguryeo, Tibet, Dali [Yunan region]) and then re-enforcing the universalistic ambitions of the nomadic steppe empires that competed with the Chinese over the northern and western frontiers. Not getting too deep into the weeds of the Tang geopolitical strategy in East Asia, the Tang would not gain ultimate victory and would instead be subjected to an all encompassing defeat at the hands of the competing imperial systems of the Uyghur steppe empire and the Tibetan empire. Tang policy in lieu of this would create complex ways of admitting equality with other states around them without it directly harming their internal stability and would double-down on their wu-wei policy of passivity, and adopt a policy of 'turn barbarian against barbarian,' which was ultimately an admission of inability of China to combat these competing imperial systems. Later Chinese states would either do as the Tang did, such as the Song or they would do as the Ming did and ignore the exterior world so far is it came to competition and instead focused on 'cultivation of harmony.' However, even during the Ming, imperial entities emerged to compete with the Ming, namely the nomadic Oirat horde and its pretense at a revived Mongol empire, the Manchu later Jin (to become the Great Qing) and the Japanese. Ming ignorance of the exterior world was not to say that the Ming did not have competition, but only that the Ming and their diplomacy was built around denying what actually existed around them and hence the blindness of the Ming central court to the terror that befell Korea when the Japanese invaded it.

Therefore, there must be a different and more enigmatic reason for the unification of China continuously that has to do with more random and chance developments than in geopolitical competition.

Tang strategy in this field of combat of geopolitical
 

kholieken

Banned
I think geography is enough explanation for China keep re-uniting.

North China Plain is simply too easily crossed by armies and officials. NCP is rich and heavilypopulated, making anyone that can control them enormous boost.

All other regions : hilly south China, mountainous Guizhou and Yunnan, Sichuan red plains, Tibet, Nomadic territory in North, Manchuria, Korea is either too small as competitor or/and held non-farming populations.
 
I think geography is enough explanation for China keep re-uniting.

North China Plain is simply too easily crossed by armies and officials. NCP is rich and heavilypopulated, making anyone that can control them enormous boost.
But then there's the question of why Europe didn't keep uniting. The North European Plain is likewise rich and fertile, but was generally divided between a multiplicity of separate countries.
 
We should also mention, just because the Great Qing or Great Ming have a unified central court and a system of provinces, does not mean it was a more centralized country. In many ways and indeed most ways, Chinese Confucian empires were more decentralized than many of the kingdoms and states of Europe in 1200. Chinese 'empire' so to speak existed constantly under an aegis of near incomprehensible decentralization to our modern mind.
I'd argue that the appropriate comparison would be Europe as a whole, not any individual European state, which were all much smaller than the Chinese empire. And China was certainly more centralised than Europe as a whole, as the latter wasn't even a single country.
 

kholieken

Banned
But then there's the question of why Europe didn't keep uniting. The North European Plain is likewise rich and fertile, but was generally divided between a multiplicity of separate countries.
I think that differences between nature on plains. NEP isn't part of Roman Empire. NEP not even settled by serious agricultural society until 800s. Most of it forest and swamps who earlier settler is semi-settled. Its also rather horizontal east-west and divided by multiple NS river. Etc.

We didn't have enough plains on Earth for comparison. But North China Plain is geographical reason for most of China dynasty.
 
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