Your challenge is to have Sogdia be considerably more successful than it was IOTL.
AHC: Wank Sogdia
- Thread starter Mort the Reaper
- Start date
A combination of China remaining Divided and a Gökturk-wank sounds Like a start.
Later, no An Lushan revolt might have prevented the backlash against Sogdians and other minorities in the Second half of the Tang.
Calling @John7755 يوحنا and @Practical Lobster ...
Later, no An Lushan revolt might have prevented the backlash against Sogdians and other minorities in the Second half of the Tang.
Calling @John7755 يوحنا and @Practical Lobster ...
Well first things first, you'll have to prevent the rise of an Islamic Persian identity, because that was ultimately the downfall of the Sogdians - rapid assimilation at the elite level to Persian culture in the centuries following the arrival of Islam. Their language was on the way out by the twelfth century, iirc. Edit - and I'm talking at the local level too, mind. At the elite level it was dead centuries sooner. Given how many local languages endured in Central Asia, that's impressive.
So you have a relatively narrow historical window with which to make Sogdia influence the world. The region was largely depopulated and based on subsistence agriculture until about the sixth century, when migrations and urbanization began again in earnest. But Sogdia never was a united and independent polity. There were almost always stronger local powers who controlled her cities. And being a settled people living in a region largely controlled by nomads, they have significant disadvantages when it comes to creating a Central Asian empire.
I'd suggest that one of the best ways to make Sogdia more influential would be to lengthen and enhance the era of Turkic dominance - a sort of "Turkish peace" across all of Central Asia all the way to Manchuria. Into this void step Sogdian merchants, spreading their culture and language and establishing colonies and little Sogdian quarters as they go. There's definitely room for a greater expansion in this manner - Sogdians played a huge role in OTL's silk road and if things could somehow remain stable for a long time maybe you could get them to have an enduring role as middlemen and colonists across Central Asia. Then you just have to ensure no Iranic dynasty with sufficient cultural prestige to enforce the assimilation of their ruling elite comes along...
So you have a relatively narrow historical window with which to make Sogdia influence the world. The region was largely depopulated and based on subsistence agriculture until about the sixth century, when migrations and urbanization began again in earnest. But Sogdia never was a united and independent polity. There were almost always stronger local powers who controlled her cities. And being a settled people living in a region largely controlled by nomads, they have significant disadvantages when it comes to creating a Central Asian empire.
I'd suggest that one of the best ways to make Sogdia more influential would be to lengthen and enhance the era of Turkic dominance - a sort of "Turkish peace" across all of Central Asia all the way to Manchuria. Into this void step Sogdian merchants, spreading their culture and language and establishing colonies and little Sogdian quarters as they go. There's definitely room for a greater expansion in this manner - Sogdians played a huge role in OTL's silk road and if things could somehow remain stable for a long time maybe you could get them to have an enduring role as middlemen and colonists across Central Asia. Then you just have to ensure no Iranic dynasty with sufficient cultural prestige to enforce the assimilation of their ruling elite comes along...
Last edited:
Unfortunately, I feel that as of late, I am the Kushan empire fan account. This is not intentional....
Why would you argue that the Sogdians should require the Celestial Turks? In otl, many of the trading networks that created the Sogdian identity in the Kushan era, disappeared as a result of the Celestial Turk regime. The Sogdians require one of two things:
1. If they are to be wanked in importance without actually ruling, they should have a regime that is able to both:
-Subjugate and neutralize the Eranshahr as the Kushan did.
-Connect Central Asia to Hindustan and possesses much of the subcontinent in some sort of vassalage or friendly status, permitting overland exchange from Hindustan north and west. This is of extreme importance!
-Is able to control the turbulence of the steppe without becoming a steppe empire. By this, I warn against the idea that the Steppe Empire is as valuable as what the Kushan created in this context. The Xiongnu styled empire, created an economic stance that demanded tribute and loot at constant rates from its subjects. It also permits infighting over the thrones of said empires, it is a reactionary system that can induce turbulence after a short period of prosperity. It also did not assist the Tocharian city states to be under Xiongnu rule, they had to pay tribute and did not receive large scale trade from east or west, as the Xiongnu used each of these direction as vectors for loot and pillaging. The Celestial Turks are much similar to the Xiongnu in this respect. They require by their nature, tribute and loot from sedentary peoples and hence diminish the transit of goods across trade networks.
-That either rules Tocharia, as the later Kushan empire did or by having friendly relations to the Chinese empires arising from the east, permitting the trasnit fo goods east to west. Though this is an inferior qualification in my view, to the prior.
or
2. The Sogdians, under the auspices of the Kangju, reform the Kushan empire shortly after its fall and subsequent Sassanid imperial rule. Find a means by which the Kangju resist Sassanid occupation and after a short interlude, returns to prominence, pushing the Sassanids south alongside the wider Kushan rebellions against the Sassanids. The Kangju in this sense, supports the return of the Kushan ruler to Bactria from the Indus, but overthrows said emperor and installs themselves into power.
Last edited:
Hey, the Kushan Empire deserve a fan account. However, a few points:
1. The reason I want the Gokturks to do better is because Sogdia prospered and reached its era of greatest achievement after they were absorbed into the Turkic sphere. Prior, they spent most of their history being overrun by successive waves of Hunnic invaders, and of those, only the Hepthalites had any interest in patronizing and supporting them. The prior Hunnic invaders did little to benefit the Sogdians compared to the Turks. Meanwhile under the Turks, Sogdian is a lingua franca and Sogdian merchants and bureaucrats are an integral part of the empire. Now I'm not saying you can't get that with a settled empire it's just going to be more difficult.
To elaborate on my earlier point, by 750 you have Arab garrisons and the beginning of the end (I rather think that the establishment of Islamic Persian culture and its propogation north becomes inevitable not long after that). Before the fifth century, you have limited urbanization. Sogdian material culture blossomed in the sixth and seventh centuries - evidence, imo, that their trading was far more prosperous in the Hepthalite and post-Hephthalite era than the prior era. I mean, I'm referring to fancy coins and bowls, but still - the relative poverty of the classical era Sogdians compared to the Sogdians of the Hepthalite era is notable.
The Hepthalites mark an interesting shift towards a more settled and urbanized sort of Hunnic dynasty. Keeping them or an equivalent successor around would do wonders for the Sogdians. But Sogdia is always on the frontier of such a state - the settled edge facing nomadic central asia. As soon as a Kushan or Hepthalite type kingdom gets sufficiently powerful, they'll move their center of power into either Balkh, or, if sufficiently successful, Iran or India. Then Sogdia is the periphery of the settled world again, and vulnerable to the next nomadic incursion.
Better to keep a relatively stable steppe empire for as long as possible, because every decade without a major nomadic incursion is another decade of incredible prosperity for Sogdia.
2. Personally I believe the Kangju were themselves Tocharian. Even if they weren't (it's tough to say, really) their culture was more of a nomadic, Iranian pastoralist type and I don't believe they would have been seen as anything other than invaders to the people of Sogdia. They did have significant numbers and a history of warring with their neighbors, and there's a lot you could do with Kangju - in fact, the idea of them making a Kushan successor state is very cool, but I don't think they're "Sogdian" for the purposes of this challenge, insomuch as I don't think they're what people think of when they say Sogdia.
1. The reason I want the Gokturks to do better is because Sogdia prospered and reached its era of greatest achievement after they were absorbed into the Turkic sphere. Prior, they spent most of their history being overrun by successive waves of Hunnic invaders, and of those, only the Hepthalites had any interest in patronizing and supporting them. The prior Hunnic invaders did little to benefit the Sogdians compared to the Turks. Meanwhile under the Turks, Sogdian is a lingua franca and Sogdian merchants and bureaucrats are an integral part of the empire. Now I'm not saying you can't get that with a settled empire it's just going to be more difficult.
To elaborate on my earlier point, by 750 you have Arab garrisons and the beginning of the end (I rather think that the establishment of Islamic Persian culture and its propogation north becomes inevitable not long after that). Before the fifth century, you have limited urbanization. Sogdian material culture blossomed in the sixth and seventh centuries - evidence, imo, that their trading was far more prosperous in the Hepthalite and post-Hephthalite era than the prior era. I mean, I'm referring to fancy coins and bowls, but still - the relative poverty of the classical era Sogdians compared to the Sogdians of the Hepthalite era is notable.
The Hepthalites mark an interesting shift towards a more settled and urbanized sort of Hunnic dynasty. Keeping them or an equivalent successor around would do wonders for the Sogdians. But Sogdia is always on the frontier of such a state - the settled edge facing nomadic central asia. As soon as a Kushan or Hepthalite type kingdom gets sufficiently powerful, they'll move their center of power into either Balkh, or, if sufficiently successful, Iran or India. Then Sogdia is the periphery of the settled world again, and vulnerable to the next nomadic incursion.
Better to keep a relatively stable steppe empire for as long as possible, because every decade without a major nomadic incursion is another decade of incredible prosperity for Sogdia.
2. Personally I believe the Kangju were themselves Tocharian. Even if they weren't (it's tough to say, really) their culture was more of a nomadic, Iranian pastoralist type and I don't believe they would have been seen as anything other than invaders to the people of Sogdia. They did have significant numbers and a history of warring with their neighbors, and there's a lot you could do with Kangju - in fact, the idea of them making a Kushan successor state is very cool, but I don't think they're "Sogdian" for the purposes of this challenge, insomuch as I don't think they're what people think of when they say Sogdia.
BavarianPhysicist
Banned
Aah. One of my favorite subjects!
It looks like the Sogdians weren't some kind of homogeneous ethnicity. They were Semi-Nomadic people living in Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Afghanistan and Tarim Basin. They were multi religious. They had extensive interactions with the surrounding Tocharians, Scythio-Khotanese, Bactrians and the Bactrian Greeks, along with interactions with the Persians, who were a bit distant.
I am unsure how you could get Sogdian wank without getting them into a confederation like the Yuezhi and the Kushans(the subclan of the Yuezhi).
The land they lived around wasn't very hospitable to support large and populous empires. To cross over into greener regions around the Volga will need the confederation to confront the Nomadic Scythian warriors and find a way to assimilate the Volga Finns and the other Volga Uralic people. However, we could have a confederation of Sogdians, their close friends, the Tocharians and other Eastern Indo-Iranian people like the Wusun plus any willing Scythian(Iskuzai) clans or "Zai". They could create an Empire encompassing the Tarim Basin, lush and fertile Issyk Kul region, Sogdia, Transoxania, Bactria and then venture into the Volga-Ural region after strengthening. Could this work out?
Another way is to create a Second Kushan Empire, this time with a larger confederation, which would contain Sogdians, Tocharians, Scythians and probably even the Wusun(they were probably there even with the Yuezhi Kushan clan of the first empire). This would have their populations in Peshawar region(capital of the Kushans), Bactria, Helmand, Gandhara, parts of Iran and the Punjab region. The latter empire maintaining a Sogdian population as it is, would be unlikely as the region is already populated.
The former Confederation that could create an Empire on the Ural and Volga could create Sogdians as an ethnicity like the Germans, who are diverse in origin but are a single ethnicity today.
It looks like the Sogdians weren't some kind of homogeneous ethnicity. They were Semi-Nomadic people living in Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Afghanistan and Tarim Basin. They were multi religious. They had extensive interactions with the surrounding Tocharians, Scythio-Khotanese, Bactrians and the Bactrian Greeks, along with interactions with the Persians, who were a bit distant.
I am unsure how you could get Sogdian wank without getting them into a confederation like the Yuezhi and the Kushans(the subclan of the Yuezhi).
The land they lived around wasn't very hospitable to support large and populous empires. To cross over into greener regions around the Volga will need the confederation to confront the Nomadic Scythian warriors and find a way to assimilate the Volga Finns and the other Volga Uralic people. However, we could have a confederation of Sogdians, their close friends, the Tocharians and other Eastern Indo-Iranian people like the Wusun plus any willing Scythian(Iskuzai) clans or "Zai". They could create an Empire encompassing the Tarim Basin, lush and fertile Issyk Kul region, Sogdia, Transoxania, Bactria and then venture into the Volga-Ural region after strengthening. Could this work out?
Another way is to create a Second Kushan Empire, this time with a larger confederation, which would contain Sogdians, Tocharians, Scythians and probably even the Wusun(they were probably there even with the Yuezhi Kushan clan of the first empire). This would have their populations in Peshawar region(capital of the Kushans), Bactria, Helmand, Gandhara, parts of Iran and the Punjab region. The latter empire maintaining a Sogdian population as it is, would be unlikely as the region is already populated.
The former Confederation that could create an Empire on the Ural and Volga could create Sogdians as an ethnicity like the Germans, who are diverse in origin but are a single ethnicity today.
Last edited:
A correction: The Kushan empire did compose of all of the groups that you mentioned. In general, we would say, the Kushan empire combined aspects of the following into a large scale and unique political entity:
-Yuezhi-Tochari (the Yuezhi being a semi-nomadic group of Tochari that lived east of general Tocharia)
-Scythians-Saka (One may argue easily, that the Kushan state was the true apogee of the Scytho-Saka people in terms of political power, wealth and cultural development, at least east of the Volga///when the Arsacid went to war with the Kushan, it would seem that they were waging war against a primarily nomadic styled army in the Scytho-Saka format and later Iranic states, such as the Sassanids, would name them as such).
-The Kangju or Sogdians were considered a composite realm of the Kushans, almost like a collection of governors. According to a relatively recent compilation of study on the Kushan empire, the Kangju were Sogdianized Scythian governors of the region, for the Kushan and the two ruled almost in a grand partnership. That is why, the best outcome for the Sogdians is the Kushan empire, as this is in essence, their empire as much as it is the empire of the Yuezhi or Scythians.
-Wusun seem to have been nomadic vassals of the Kushan. They at the time, were living in the region that formed the boundary between the early Kushan realm and the Western Xiongnu. We are aware of Kushan activity in Wusun and Xiongnu lands by way of the acquisition of metals, wares and other items from there and the coinage of the Kushan extends far north into the borders of modern Russia in rare amounts, Signifying at least some level of Kushan influence and rule therein. Most of the opinions tend to assert at least tentative Kushan rule over the Wusun as vassals or tributaries during the reigns of Kanishka I, Huvishka, Vasudeva I and Kanishka II (Northern kingdom).
-The Greco-Bactrian contingent. This is especially important as ti played the basis for much of Kushan governmental ruling basis, taxing norms, titles, coinage, etc... If the Scytho-Yuezhi made up the Kushan army, Kangju-Sogdians made up its merchants and governors, then the Greeks made up its foundation government and its urban bureaucracy.
Regardless, I think its best option is as you say, to reform the Kushan empire and break the Sassanids somehow and then extend its power westward, eastward and southward. I have discussed in the past, the potential of the Kushan empire in terms of its sort of mixture of nomadic and sedentary qualities as absorbing the Eurasian steppe into a super entity spanning much of northern Eurasia and then poking deep into Hindustan.
Last edited:
Sogdia finds itself in a difficult position, perhaps a geopolitical nightmare. As said, from the west, you need to preserve your identity from being swallowed by the Persians, from the north you need to prevent the Turkic peoples from overwhelming you.
I mean Sogdia is synonymous with Uzbekistan, partly Tajikistan. Uzbekistan today is a Turkic nation .
Problem is that there is no natural barrier to the north that would be easily defensible
I mean Sogdia is synonymous with Uzbekistan, partly Tajikistan. Uzbekistan today is a Turkic nation .
Problem is that there is no natural barrier to the north that would be easily defensible
You are partly correct, but the Turkic states were a new entity by the time Sogdia was already in decline. The Sogdians reached their zenith during the ebb and flow and struggle to maintain and rebuild the Kushan empire. As time moved past this period, the Sogdians became less and less important until under Islam, persianization or Turkification began in earnest and diminished their people or replaced them in some areas.
However, there is ways to defend that border, it however requires extending deeper into the steppe and controlling dangerous steppe nomads on the fringes that form walls around the region. The Kushan ultimately possessed something akin to this in the Wusun and the remnants of the Western Xiongnu.