With a POD after 1844, is it possible for most of the US population to be some flavor of the Latter Day Saints faith by the year 2000?
AHC: USA Majority Mormon by the Year 2000
- Thread starter John Farrier
- Start date
Constructive.
Anyway, this is basically impossible. Mainstream Protestantism and Catholicism are too deeply ingrained to be swept away. Mormonism was widely popular in OTL, and I don't see how to increase it so much. I guess we could do some sort of "Peshawar Lancers" thing where we wipe out most of the USA and save Utah but that seems not exactly the spirit.
FillyofDelphi
Banned
All of it? I'm not terribly confident. However, if you can finagle a Reverse Civil War scenario in which the Mormons stayed in Missouri (Possibly avoiding the Young-Smith III schism) and Southern Protestantism goes through an identity crisis, I COULD see Mormonism gaining a solid following as an American Exceptionalisj/ White Supremacy religion if the "US" goes down a pseudo fascist path
I wonder what it would take to get other Protestant churches to embrace LDS wholesale. But there are too many, too varied, churches in the US for this to be very easy.
I'll take a stab at it...
Okay, Joseph Smith isn't killed, also somehow the early church doesn't suffer all the little various in-fighting that it suffered from in the 1830's. The Civil War breaks-outs as OTL, most Mormons still live in the north, the ones who lived south had been urged to move north for the past couple years. The Mormons form several Mormon Brigades to fight in the conflict. However, early in the war, some epidemic breaks out, like the Spanish Flu or something, in the Northern cities such as New York, Boston, Philly, and D.C. Men fighting down south, sometimes whole units, desert to return home, only to become sick themselves. In D.C. the flu is at it's worse, politicians in particular seemed to be affected by it, and over the course of two very hectic weeks the presidency passes, eventually, to a weakened Salmon P. Chase, who asks the South for a armistice. With fighting stopped the Mormons, mostly unaffected by the Flu, send themselves into the sick cities to help in whatever way they can. The Mormon's way of dealing with the disease seems to be more effective then the modern doctors of the time. In the 1864 Joseph Smith handily beats the incumbent Chase. Smith's policies are clearly beneficial to Mormons at the expense of Protestant Christians and Catholics. Smith fails to win re-election vs. an anti-Mormon politician. Said anti-Mormon President has a disastrous term- he attempts to sell the Oregon territory (still not a state ITTL) to the UK, the deal falls apart when Oregon declares independence. California follows suit. Another Mormon is elected US President. Everything past Missouri, Iowa and Minnesota is recognized as Indian Territory, with the Mormon's pulling out American support there. In New England succession is declared, and the Mormon President doesn't disputed it. This rump USA implements theocratic policies that encourage people to become Mormon, and by the year 2000 Mormonism is easily the largest denomination in the USA.
Okay, Joseph Smith isn't killed, also somehow the early church doesn't suffer all the little various in-fighting that it suffered from in the 1830's. The Civil War breaks-outs as OTL, most Mormons still live in the north, the ones who lived south had been urged to move north for the past couple years. The Mormons form several Mormon Brigades to fight in the conflict. However, early in the war, some epidemic breaks out, like the Spanish Flu or something, in the Northern cities such as New York, Boston, Philly, and D.C. Men fighting down south, sometimes whole units, desert to return home, only to become sick themselves. In D.C. the flu is at it's worse, politicians in particular seemed to be affected by it, and over the course of two very hectic weeks the presidency passes, eventually, to a weakened Salmon P. Chase, who asks the South for a armistice. With fighting stopped the Mormons, mostly unaffected by the Flu, send themselves into the sick cities to help in whatever way they can. The Mormon's way of dealing with the disease seems to be more effective then the modern doctors of the time. In the 1864 Joseph Smith handily beats the incumbent Chase. Smith's policies are clearly beneficial to Mormons at the expense of Protestant Christians and Catholics. Smith fails to win re-election vs. an anti-Mormon politician. Said anti-Mormon President has a disastrous term- he attempts to sell the Oregon territory (still not a state ITTL) to the UK, the deal falls apart when Oregon declares independence. California follows suit. Another Mormon is elected US President. Everything past Missouri, Iowa and Minnesota is recognized as Indian Territory, with the Mormon's pulling out American support there. In New England succession is declared, and the Mormon President doesn't disputed it. This rump USA implements theocratic policies that encourage people to become Mormon, and by the year 2000 Mormonism is easily the largest denomination in the USA.
I think to make this happen you have to have a much broader definition of what counts as a Mormon. A much broader movement that the OTL Mormons are only one part of could conceivably work somehow. For instance, if the gifts of the spirit and modern prophecy are seen to be the defining elements of Mormonism, then you could have OTL Pentecostals and charismatics considered as Mormons, just not those crazy latter-day sainter Mormons in Utah who believe all the crazy stuff.
Or maybe what makes a "Mormon" could be believing in the importance of family relationships and their continuance after death. Again, the OTL Mormons would then just be a fringe element in the much larger "Mormon" movement.
Or maybe what makes a "Mormon" could be believing in the importance of family relationships and their continuance after death. Again, the OTL Mormons would then just be a fringe element in the much larger "Mormon" movement.
Im somewhat of the opinion that Mormonism is one of those faiths which would have a hard time having that large a following in one country, so I think its somewhat ASB past the age of mass media.
As I dont think its possible, I would like to contribute some of the cultural things I think would be pretty cool.
Namely, Mormon mythology is pretty awesome RE American civilizations within it. I could see some really awesome fantasy literature coming out of America, hopefully rivalling Tolkien's high fantasy.
Also, I love the craziness surrounding conspiracy theories. There are already a few whacky ones for the mormon faith (my favourite being the "Mormons actually worship Mammon!" Just because it clearly came from someone who thought noticing similar sounding stuff must mean they are connected
), but if America still becomes a world leader then I could see all sorts of lizardmen stuff being a conspiracy narrative.
As I dont think its possible, I would like to contribute some of the cultural things I think would be pretty cool.
Namely, Mormon mythology is pretty awesome RE American civilizations within it. I could see some really awesome fantasy literature coming out of America, hopefully rivalling Tolkien's high fantasy.
Also, I love the craziness surrounding conspiracy theories. There are already a few whacky ones for the mormon faith (my favourite being the "Mormons actually worship Mammon!" Just because it clearly came from someone who thought noticing similar sounding stuff must mean they are connected
), but if America still becomes a world leader then I could see all sorts of lizardmen stuff being a conspiracy narrative.
Maybe an alternate Civil War with a Republican president who governs like Abraham Lincoln in most respects, but leans far more heavily on fundamenatlist, Protestant Christian rhetoric in his denunciation of Southern slaveholders, perhaps pressuring religious leaders to very explicitly condemn the Confederacy in exchange for getting behind something like the Christian amendment? Perhaps this sequence of events sours many Southerners towards conventional Protestantism, and then...
A while ago I had a TL idea where the US conquers more/all of mexico and a Mormon serving in the army ends up falling in love with a Mexican girl who helps translate the BoM into Spanish in the late 1840s.
I suspect your best bet is a large scale nuclear war that devastates most of the coasts and Midwest. Utah is likely a much lower priority target (and the surrounding states, which have significant Mormon populations, are generally even less so). So the Mormons make up a disproportionately large chunk of the survivors, and critically, control the closest thing to a central government left, in a destabilized, post-apocalyptic world (the sort where order is the most important thing, and theocracy doesn't seem so bad). In this scenario, a Mormon state could emerge from the disaster, and use its initial head start to both consolidate control and promote its own faith.
Less dystopian ways about it are really hard to do. Mormons were massively despised by general American society for most of the 19th century (there's a reason that they kept getting chased out by mobs and eventually decided to flee to unsettled territory to avoid it), so getting early entry into power is basically impossible. Mormonism has historically had a fairly impressive growth rate, but reaching majority status requires by 2010 increasing that by well over an order of magnitude. A quick google search suggests that there are currently roughly ~6 million Mormons in the US today, out of a total American population of ~300 million. It's not impossible to imagine a faster growth rate, but not that much.
Less dystopian ways about it are really hard to do. Mormons were massively despised by general American society for most of the 19th century (there's a reason that they kept getting chased out by mobs and eventually decided to flee to unsettled territory to avoid it), so getting early entry into power is basically impossible. Mormonism has historically had a fairly impressive growth rate, but reaching majority status requires by 2010 increasing that by well over an order of magnitude. A quick google search suggests that there are currently roughly ~6 million Mormons in the US today, out of a total American population of ~300 million. It's not impossible to imagine a faster growth rate, but not that much.
You were warned for trolling on August 9th. You have only been here for 20 days. You have now trolled your way into a kick. You now have more actions than most folks who have been here for a decade.
I suggest you wait and let them catch up.
See you in 7.
How about a communist revolution that leaves a rump USA around Utah, Nevada and southern Idaho?
I was about to say something just like that, a civil war rocks the U.S. in the 30's, the rust belt and northeast turn communist (perhaps Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine join Canada, as there were significant Canadian populations there, both French and English), the south turns fascist, Texas and California become independent, Cascadia joins Canada or becomes independent and the United States is a shell of it's former self stuck in the Great Basin and Rockies with it's capital in Salt Lake City and a majority-Mormon populous.How about a communist revolution that leaves a rump USA around Utah, Nevada and southern Idaho?
Im going to somewhat revise my statement as a predicate.
Barring dystopic turns of event, I think it could more easily gain converts in the modern era on a more contiguous fashion if Joseph Smith does not base the Book of Abraham on incorrectly translating the pagan burial papyrus.
Could it potentially spread on a political basis? OTL Joseph Smith proposed the idea of theodemocracy, perhaps it is expanded somewhat to the point where it can majorly influence one of the bigger parties.
Barring dystopic turns of event, I think it could more easily gain converts in the modern era on a more contiguous fashion if Joseph Smith does not base the Book of Abraham on incorrectly translating the pagan burial papyrus.
Could it potentially spread on a political basis? OTL Joseph Smith proposed the idea of theodemocracy, perhaps it is expanded somewhat to the point where it can majorly influence one of the bigger parties.
GeographyDude
Gone Fishin'
In the excellent book The Great Influenza about the 1918-1919 influenza pandemic, the author John Barry talks about how nursing care did make a difference on survival rates.
So maybe a largely Mormon community in the mid-west gets hit by influenza prior to the war.
This gives them an ethic of care even at risk to yourself, experience with actual nursing skills, and perhaps most importantly, a degree of immunity!
The Mormons receive praise for bravery, which they say, no, just helping to care for some sick people. Both the praise and the decline of the praise build their reputation.
Not possible.
Mormonism for all practical purposes is a fringe religion. The reason they have this much mainstream influence is that they settled in the Utah territory, and thus when Utah became a state they had some political influence. Reed Smoot and the GOP is a good example of this. With the need to moderate (on issues such as polygamy), they became more accepted in the mainstream, but the polygamy taint is permanent. Remember, in 1856 the Republican Party ran on the platform against slavery and polygamy, an allusion to Mormonism. And the Book of Mormon as another holy book would have been too much for most Christians to accept. Also, saying Jesus was born not in Israel but in Missouri would have also been too much. Mormonism has too many traits that deviate from traditional Christianity.
Imo, Mormonism has done very well in otl. The Mormon community has a majority in one state, and so there is no threat of persecution. The LDS Church is very well integrated in many American institutions (including formerly the Boy Scouts), and this leads to my second point. After Utah statehood was achieved and thus the mormon community was well ingrained in the American social fabric, there was no need to change anything. Just the the southern baptist tradition is happy being southern, the Mormon church has no problem being located primarily in the American mountainous west. It’s a regional religion, and the regional community is proud of that (this is not just the case for Mormons at all).
So I would say 99.9% chance it would not happen.
Mormonism for all practical purposes is a fringe religion. The reason they have this much mainstream influence is that they settled in the Utah territory, and thus when Utah became a state they had some political influence. Reed Smoot and the GOP is a good example of this. With the need to moderate (on issues such as polygamy), they became more accepted in the mainstream, but the polygamy taint is permanent. Remember, in 1856 the Republican Party ran on the platform against slavery and polygamy, an allusion to Mormonism. And the Book of Mormon as another holy book would have been too much for most Christians to accept. Also, saying Jesus was born not in Israel but in Missouri would have also been too much. Mormonism has too many traits that deviate from traditional Christianity.
Imo, Mormonism has done very well in otl. The Mormon community has a majority in one state, and so there is no threat of persecution. The LDS Church is very well integrated in many American institutions (including formerly the Boy Scouts), and this leads to my second point. After Utah statehood was achieved and thus the mormon community was well ingrained in the American social fabric, there was no need to change anything. Just the the southern baptist tradition is happy being southern, the Mormon church has no problem being located primarily in the American mountainous west. It’s a regional religion, and the regional community is proud of that (this is not just the case for Mormons at all).
So I would say 99.9% chance it would not happen.
Nephi
Banned
America would be relatively similar in many respects.
Even though many see the LDS as a large cult this is no more or less true than say the Southern Baptist, or the Catholics, the United Methodist.
There are many different flavors but there is but one Jesus Christ.
You'd see a somewhat more community oriented America, on the local level. Largely it might have a more small town feel overall.
It would also depend largely on the direction of this alternate Mormon America.
Do we have more branches of Mormonism, certainly.
I would imagine you'd have trinitarian groups, groups who were more liberal or reserved.
Perhaps here the LDS might well not be the largest branch.
Small communities of FLDS of different branches, some might be more similar to the Amish others like the Mennonites.
You'd have splinters too from the FLDS those who while holding onto a more regressed lifestyle. Perhaps just shunning devices like tv, radio, but who are no longer polygamist.
More independent minded branches.
This would as in our timeline still be a uniquely American faith, but with Americans largest faith being more dominate (in it's various ways) you'd see worldwide a greater Mormon influence.
Perhaps and most probably more Temple's worldwide.
Which reminds me you'd probably have groups who spring up that while they're Mormons would shun the idea of Temple's.
It's an interesting and quite possible situation that here you'd have one group possibly a trinitarian more liberal group protesting the LDS building a temple in their towns.
Worldwide and within the US too this also means there will be many different people born, who knows what the butterfly will bring to this timeline.
Last edited: