As part of the negotiations resolving John of Gaunt's claim to Castille, King Henry III of Castille married John's daughter, Catherine of Lancaster; this being the sister of the future Henry IV and the grandmother of Isabella of Castille, whose marriage to Ferdinand of Aragon created modern Spain. Given the unsettled nature of the English monarchy in the subsequent decades, I have to wonder if Castille- if less preoccupied by its own dynastic instability- might put forward one of Henry's descendants as a claimant to the English (or for that matter, French- Aquitaine is right there) thrones in the 15th century.
AHC: Trastamara England
- Thread starter The Undead Martyr
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Deleted member 147978
The most senior Lancastrian claim was the Portuguese Casa de Aviz claim descended from Philippa of Lancaster.
Casa de Trastamara only received Lancastrian blood because of Gaunt's intervention into Castile and Leon.
I doubt many Englishmen would even accept an foreign Iberian for a monarch in a personal union between England and Spain/Portugal.
Casa de Trastamara only received Lancastrian blood because of Gaunt's intervention into Castile and Leon.
I doubt many Englishmen would even accept an foreign Iberian for a monarch in a personal union between England and Spain/Portugal.
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Grey Wolf
Donor
The aversion to foreign rule is one thing, but at the same time the English clearly accepted someone who had lived the majority of their life abroad as English. I think it is more a question of if the claimant held power in their home kingdom, and if not had accepted an English [sic] identity. I could imagine a Portuguese claimant who was not at the same time a Portuguese magnate (having a Portuguese title is not the same as exercising a role in government), if that individual emphasised their English origins and focused solely on the English throne
I would think that a Portuguese or Castillian noble- a younger son or brother to the king- would be a perfectly acceptable claimant in the 15th century, particularly the former given the alliance. Nor do I think England would be uniquely opposed to a personal union, even if Portugal/Castille would be rather more distant (a Burgundian or French PU would be much closer) and probably liable to be split a la the Habsburgs.
I am actually focused more on the ramifications of Spain getting a collateral branch in England (given that Spain and England eventually became rivals, but were fairly amicable pre-Reformation) and especially the Spanish potentially absorbing the Plantagenet claims in France. Aquitaine, after all, was discussed as an apanage for John of Gaunt, and Aragon once held the Languedoc.
I am actually focused more on the ramifications of Spain getting a collateral branch in England (given that Spain and England eventually became rivals, but were fairly amicable pre-Reformation) and especially the Spanish potentially absorbing the Plantagenet claims in France. Aquitaine, after all, was discussed as an apanage for John of Gaunt, and Aragon once held the Languedoc.
Technically, this was theoretically more likely to happen than OTL Henry VII becoming King, due to their better claim to the English throne.
This is an era in which England would be uniquely hostile to a foreign royal house. The English had begun to form a national identity during the Hundred Years War, and the glories of Edward III and Henry V's reigns -- the latter of which would be in living memory for people through much of the 15th century -- had given the English nobility a rather extreme opinion of themselves and their countrymen. On top of that, there are at least two major legal challenges to Trastámaran England:
If the Trastámaras were to successfully press their claim to the English throne by force, then western Europe's system of alliances would likely be rewritten. France would be nearly encircled by Trastámaran kingdoms -- England, Castile, Navarre, Aragon, Sicily and Naples -- and the Navarrese branch would have already inherited that kingdom's claim to the French crown. I suspect France may seek an alliance with Portugal, the last non-Trastámaran kingdom in Iberia and whose king has a greater claim to England anyway. War seems inevitable ...
Another way to get to Trastámaran England would be not to have the Castilian Trastámarans put their own claim forward, but to have some junior branch wed Elizabeth of York. You could set a POD in 1483 so that Elizabeth Woodville dispatches her daughters to a foreign court for their own protection after receiving news that Gloucester (soon-to-be Richard III) takes custody of Edward V, and that Elizabeth sails back with Trastámaran support to reclaim her birthright.
- Edward III's Status of Children Born Abroad Act of 1350/1, which confirmed without question that the children of royals born abroad could inherit the throne so long as they were in "ligeance" with the crown -- i.e., Lionel of Antwerp and John of Gaunt could succeed, despite being born in Flanders, because they owed allegiance to their father as king. A consequence of the act is that it voids the inheritance rights of children of princesses wed abroad, as their children would owe allegiance to whomever their father was subject because Europe was patriarchal. So, strictly speaking, none of the descendants of house of Trastámara have any right to the crown. (Though, admittedly, this was in an era when parliament's power was still rather debatable.)
- The inferiority of Trastámara's claim. Catherine was the youngest of Gaunt's three surviving daughters, so if the English were to set aside the above act and simply look abroad for their next king then the house of Avis would have the better claim.
If the Trastámaras were to successfully press their claim to the English throne by force, then western Europe's system of alliances would likely be rewritten. France would be nearly encircled by Trastámaran kingdoms -- England, Castile, Navarre, Aragon, Sicily and Naples -- and the Navarrese branch would have already inherited that kingdom's claim to the French crown. I suspect France may seek an alliance with Portugal, the last non-Trastámaran kingdom in Iberia and whose king has a greater claim to England anyway. War seems inevitable ...
Another way to get to Trastámaran England would be not to have the Castilian Trastámarans put their own claim forward, but to have some junior branch wed Elizabeth of York. You could set a POD in 1483 so that Elizabeth Woodville dispatches her daughters to a foreign court for their own protection after receiving news that Gloucester (soon-to-be Richard III) takes custody of Edward V, and that Elizabeth sails back with Trastámaran support to reclaim her birthright.
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Just bearing in mind the troubles of Juan II of Castile to keep the Portugese crown (and failed at that), I cannot imagine a Trastámara king in England unless is massively supported by the English.
If Elizabeth of York goes to "Spain" hoping for a Trastámara prince in 1483... well, I'm sorry, but there is none available. Juan of Castille is five years old.
There is a bastard son of Carlos de Viana, Felipe, born in 1456. That's all.
If Elizabeth of York goes to "Spain" hoping for a Trastámara prince in 1483... well, I'm sorry, but there is none available. Juan of Castille is five years old.
There is a bastard son of Carlos de Viana, Felipe, born in 1456. That's all.
The Neapolitan branch of the family has three legitimate younger sons at this point, in addition to various bastard sons set up as dukes and counts. There is also Ferdinand of Aragon, though as heir to crown, an Anglo-Aragonese union seems unworkable.
In 1483 Fernando is already married, so we can forget him.
If Castile has little power to help Elizabeth, the remote Sicily is even less a candidate for the English throne. And Ferrante had more pressing matters at hand.
Tudor won the throne in OTL with just a couple thousand foreign mercenaries. At the very least, Elizabeth and her husband could be shipped off with the gold to buy an army that size. The question is whether the English resistance would form to support them once they landed.
What about this:
Juan, Prince of Asturias, and his double brother-in-law Philip Habsburg switch fates. Children of Juan and his wife Margaret of Austria would be heirs of Castile, Aragon and Low Countries. Say, that Juan's and Margaret's older son inherits Spanish Kingdoms, younger one is given Low Countries. And that younger son or his son marries English heiress eventually (Henry VIII would marry Catherine of Aragon earlier in such scenario, as there would not be Eleanor of Austria as alternative to CoA. Coa would avoid lots of stress and could have more living kids with H8 ITTL).
Juan, Prince of Asturias, and his double brother-in-law Philip Habsburg switch fates. Children of Juan and his wife Margaret of Austria would be heirs of Castile, Aragon and Low Countries. Say, that Juan's and Margaret's older son inherits Spanish Kingdoms, younger one is given Low Countries. And that younger son or his son marries English heiress eventually (Henry VIII would marry Catherine of Aragon earlier in such scenario, as there would not be Eleanor of Austria as alternative to CoA. Coa would avoid lots of stress and could have more living kids with H8 ITTL).
Deleted member 147978
Will Juan Trastamara himself be satisfied if he and his progeny inherit the Netherlands and England along with Spain? Will the Netherlanders even be happy that a Spaniard will be ruling over them from Madrid even with an appointed governor?
Give Catherine multiple sons and then concoct a scenario where one of the younger sons ends up in England and prospers under their uncle or cousin.
Have said line of English Trastamaras stick around long enough to firmly anglicise and then either a) produce a viable claimant should the Lancastrian mainline still fizzle out, or b) be chosen as the husband for a Lancastrian heiress. Maybe kill off some of the other Plantagenet lines (e.g. York) along the way to smooth the path?
Have said line of English Trastamaras stick around long enough to firmly anglicise and then either a) produce a viable claimant should the Lancastrian mainline still fizzle out, or b) be chosen as the husband for a Lancastrian heiress. Maybe kill off some of the other Plantagenet lines (e.g. York) along the way to smooth the path?
I think the main problem for the Trastamara (outside of the logistics of war and all that) was the lack of male members, at least from this specific Trastamara-Lancaster branch. By the end of the 15th Century only female members were alive, one was Isabella (future Queen of Castile), and the other one was Joanna (alias la Beltraneja). And I don't see the English barons being too motivated into serving a queen, let alone a foreign one.
For starters, you would need for Henry IV of Castile to have more sons and not only a daughter of dubious reputation. With this you made him secure the throne without having to go to war with his siblings (avoiding the War of the Castilian Succession) helping stabilize the situation of the kingdom, while having some extra time to spare with other ventures. Then you could make a second or third son of him to go and present himself as a another candidate for the throne of England when the situation demands it.
Or maybe not his sons, lets say he only has one (the future king), there was still his little half-brother Alfonso. If any, it would be better for Henry IV to help him into gaining another throne just to left him rule Castile in peace.
The other option would be go higher into the family tree and have more sons and less daughters since the start (since Henry III and Catherine's times), but the butterflies would be too big and maybe things could get worse in ways we couldn't predict.
For starters, you would need for Henry IV of Castile to have more sons and not only a daughter of dubious reputation. With this you made him secure the throne without having to go to war with his siblings (avoiding the War of the Castilian Succession) helping stabilize the situation of the kingdom, while having some extra time to spare with other ventures. Then you could make a second or third son of him to go and present himself as a another candidate for the throne of England when the situation demands it.
Or maybe not his sons, lets say he only has one (the future king), there was still his little half-brother Alfonso. If any, it would be better for Henry IV to help him into gaining another throne just to left him rule Castile in peace.
The other option would be go higher into the family tree and have more sons and less daughters since the start (since Henry III and Catherine's times), but the butterflies would be too big and maybe things could get worse in ways we couldn't predict.
I thought this was going to be a TL where the genders of Katherine of Aragon and Arthur/Henry Tudor are flipped, at first...
That being said I 100000% doubt that in the 15th century, Castile is going to bother with England when they are in their own battle for dynastic stability
That being said I 100000% doubt that in the 15th century, Castile is going to bother with England when they are in their own battle for dynastic stability
It reminds me this thread:
AHC: Katherine of Aragon becomes queen regnant of England
Note the difference between queen consort which she was OTL, and regnant (e.g.: her OTL daughter, Mary I). Yes this situation is implausible. Hence why it is a challenge lol.
www.alternatehistory.com
Yes, my thread. I thought of it too. That being said, you want a Trastamara England, you CANNOT have Alfonso (brother of Isabella I) die young because Castile had barely enough men to go around themselves
Which Catherine?
Because there WAS a Trastamara Katherine who DID become queen of England IOTL, and if SHE has healthy sons then certainly there will be a Trastamara England