AHC: The United States is more heavily influenced by Native American culture than OTL

[Lateknight]

Size shouldn't be an issue... The Jewish population in the United States is about the same size as the Native American population yet Jewish American influence on popular culture is very strong.

Jews unlike Native Americans haven't been marginalized in america they are also a disproportionally prosperous group that is over represented in professions and areas that have impacts on the nation culture . Jews are also relatively more homogenous than Native Americans a group that contains dozens of separate culture. The bottom line is that the circumstances of Jewish people are a not at like native Americans.

 

[zoomar]

Preventing the Dawes Act and thus the breakup of the 5 Civilized Tribe's* land in the west could do it. Although this was after the Trail of Tears, the 5 tribes controlled vast tracks of land and maintained tribal universities-they had a base from which to rebuild their wealth, and with their universities a way to at least partially 'break into' elite American culture.

With the Dawe's Act though, the land was broken up and parceled out to families, who were often bilked out of ownership, and the Curtis Act robbed them of much of their self government. Let them keep their self-government and tribal land, and they could approach American culture on much firmer ground and influence it more on their terms than through myths of the noble savage.




*Cherokee, Chickasaw, Choctaw, Seminole and Creek. So named because they adopted European agriculture, metallurgy, writing, and that great mark of Southern civilization, race-based enslavement of Africans.

This might help create a native American state or region (ie OTL Oklahoma), with some autonomy and which tribal culture survived in a more coherent form, but as you note, the Five Civilized Tribes were so named because they had already, to a large extent, adopted white European culture...and intermariange between white men and native women often put whites (or largely white mixed-bloods) in tribal leadership positions. I'm not sure how this would address the OP, which is asking how to make Native American culture have a greater influence on broader US society. To do this, I think you'd need a PoD well before the Dawes Act...an a US policy that emphasied acculturation (rather than exclusion and apartheid) from the beginning and granted tribal people US and State citizenship. This would have made the trail of tears clearly illegal, and the survival of fairly large Indian communities intermixed with whites might have allowed more transfusion of Native values and traditions to the broader society.

 

['Ezana]

Jews unlike Native Americans haven't been marginalized in america they are also a disproportionally prosperous group that is over represented in professions and areas that have impacts on the nation culture . Jews are also relatively more homogenous than Native Americans a group that contains dozens of separate culture. The bottom line is that the circumstances of Jewish people are a not at like native Americans.

The Jews were marginalized and stereotyped in America though. They set "Jewish quotas" at elite universities and they tried to limit Jewish immigration, among other offences. Granted, they were still much less oppressed than the Native Americans in all aspects, but you can't say they weren't marginalized.

 

[Lateknight]

The Jews were marginalized and stereotyped in America though. They set "Jewish quotas" at elite universities and they tried to limit Jewish immigration, among other offences. Granted, they were still much less oppressed than the Native Americans in all aspects, but you can't say they weren't marginalized.

I should said relativity less marginalized the point is the Jews had it easy compared to the natives.

 

[telynk]

Here's a proposal, although I feel that I know little enough about the American Revolutionary War that this may turn out to be ASB.

1) The early phases of the ARW go very badly for the Rebels. The British bring in enough troops that the rebels are forced to flee West, and conduct a guerilla campaign in the Appalachians.

2) George Washington and his guerilla fighters come into contact with various native nations in the area. They learn foraging and survival skills from the natives, and make trade a diplomacy links with them. In particular, the Rebels agree to respect the Royal Proclamation rights of Natives West of the Appalachians.

3) The British crack down on potential rebels in the Thirteen Colonies, forcing many of them to flee West to the Appalachians.

4) A large enough Rebel population has accumulated in the Appalachians that the guerilla fighters can now form a proper army, and the Rebel lines advance Eastward, gradually expelling the British.

5) A very native-influenced George Washington is made President. He gives the natives West of the Appalachians the right to decide how their own land is governed. White settlers are only permitted if they submit to the native territorial government. Eventually, agreements with the natives are reached to portion this land of into states, but native governance structures are enshrined in the identities of all of America West of the Appalachians.

 

[Lucius Verus]

Hmm I seem to recall threads about wayward roman fleets and such, what if we simply get a sufficient population of European/Chinese people into the Americas earlier with all the crops and domesticates early on in the development of the Americas?

 

[telynk]

Hmm I seem to recall threads about wayward roman fleets and such, what if we simply get a sufficient population of European/Chinese people into the Americas earlier with all the crops and domesticates early on in the development of the Americas?

This is an example of the type of POD I was talking about earlier in this thread that would result in a native american-influence polity in North America, but would probably not result in a recognizable United States. I think it's an interesting thing to think about, but I don't think it would satisfy the OP's challenge.

 

[thekingsguard]

The problem is it wasn't really a case of the Iroquois siding against the US but more of the US siding against the Iroquois (and other natives). Part of the impetus for the American Revolution was the Royal Proclamation of 1763 which reserved land West of the Appalachians for the natives. By standing against the Royal Proclamation, the Americans were really sending a message to the natives that they intended to take their lands by force.

As I understand, there was considerable debate between the Iroquois whether to side with the Americans or the British, and they chose the British because of the long-standing alliance they had. Unfortunately, this was the one case of the British being the losing team, and it destroyed the previously idealistic view of the Iroquois held by several of the founding fathers.

Have them side with the Americans, and they get a seat not only at the winner's table, but likely as one of the 13 American colonies - it would take some work and a LOT of luck, but we could see the Iroquois allowed to join the Union as a state.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

As I understand, there was considerable debate between the Iroquois whether to side with the Americans or the British, and they chose the British because of the long-standing alliance they had..

Actually, more because the British were no threat to them and the Americans were. 'Towndestroyer' was the Iroquois name for Washington, not any British general.

 

[Maur]

Hm. Lets see: have the French win 7-years war, and then have American revolution nonetheless that succeeds somehow. For some time 13 colonies stay where they are while Lousiana develops somewhat the French way. Much later the two somehow end as one country.

 

[PlotVitalNPC]

As I have often seen suggested to create a larger native population with more influence, have Variola Minor (Alastrim) reach America and spread instead of Variola Major (Smallpox). Alastrim has less than a 1% fatality rate, compared to the 30% rate of Smallpox, and antibodies for it are equally effective against smallpox itself.

If we assumed that the ratio of Alastrim deaths to Smallpox deaths held true as a virgin soil epidemic AND variola pathogens were the only Eurasian pathogen involved, we'd have ~1/60th the plague deaths of OTL.

That needs to be adjusted, though, because whether smallpox or alastrim, variola was not alone in reaching America. My presumption, though, is that the reduction in death rates would actually be greater than division by sixty on account of both the lower death rate reducing the instances of the infected dieing because there was nobody healthy to care for them. Another reason for the reduction in death rate is that rather than someone being infected with influenza and smallpox, a recipe for sure death, they would be infected with influenza and variola, so mostly just influenza for the purposes of determining their chances of survival.

On another note, a spread of variola minor would likely prevent the massive population diebacks which made the civilizations of Mesoamerica and the Andes so fragile and vulnerable to conquistadores.

 

['Ezana]

As I have often seen suggested to create a larger native population with more influence, have Variola Minor (Alastrim) reach America and spread instead of Variola Major (Smallpox). Alastrim has less than a 1% fatality rate, compared to the 30% rate of Smallpox, and antibodies for it are equally effective against smallpox itself.

There was actually a thread where we discussed this, and we concluded that alastrim probably did not exist during the 1400s and probably only mutated in the 1800s, so the scenario can't be pulled off without a plausible POD in which alastrim (or something similar) mutates several hundred years earlier.

Another way to go about it is to have some of the initial conquistador expeditions get slaughtered by natives, which is actually less hard than one would think. Europeans will probably still come to the new world, but they might hesitate to outright conquer places. We should also note that the conquistadors that roamed the Americas looking for conquests were partially a continuation of some Reconquista traditions, so if another place like France discovers the Americas, colonization might happen very differently.

 

[PlotVitalNPC]

There was actually a thread where we discussed this, and we concluded that alastrim probably did not exist during the 1400s and probably only mutated in the 1800s, so the scenario can't be pulled off without a plausible POD in which alastrim (or something similar) mutates several hundred years earlier.

Which by board standards makes it unambiguously an ASB scenario, sadly.

 

['Ezana]

Which by board standards makes it unambiguously an ASB scenario, sadly.

Does Jared's yam TL count as ASB under those standards, or is it just still in this forum due to inertia? Because the proposed viral mutation would be even less dramatic than the one that kickstarted that TL.

 

[Ultimate Paragon]

Does Jared's yam TL count as ASB under those standards, or is it just still in this forum due to inertia? Because the proposed viral mutation would be even less dramatic than the one that kickstarted that TL.

These kinds of scenarios are a gray area, I'd say.

 

[Zorqal]

Maybe preventing the diseases that killed off lots of natives before the Europeans arrived. A large portion of the natives died off from plague jsut before Europeans came, so their diseases just made bad into worse.

 

[Deleted member 82792]

I've read that during the early days of the New England colonies, children from the Pilgrim settlements were sometimes capture by N.A. but raised like children born among their tribes. Many of these abductees like living with the natives so much, that they would run back to them after being rescued.

Perhaps, during the war, a lot of children would be orphaned, and the local tribes would take them in, so that a generation later, the Natives would have more supporters then in the OTL.

 

[norse]

You're going to need a lot more natives. As of right now, only about 2% of the country is of native descent (that's self-reported data, so we're including all those white people who say "I'm not white, I'm 1/16th Cherokee"), so there aren't really enough of them to have a larger cultural influence than they did in OTL.

You are also not including those who are 1/4 to 1/8 native american and who do not live on any reservations and may not identify with their indigenous heritage.

 

[norse]

The most prominent possibility would be to keep the 5 civilized tribes from being defeated and allow for them to grow stronger and interact regularly with the rest of America.