AHC: Serbian southern Italy
- Thread starter Will Kürlich Kerl
- Start date
Lord Protector
Banned
Easy enough,make the habsburgs more zealos in their catholicism so when the serbs start leaving en mass to avoid the turks they go to southern italy.
Only place they can go given the papal states wont accept them and anything further north is habsburg dominated.
Only place they can go given the papal states wont accept them and anything further north is habsburg dominated.
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
That won't make southern Italy remotely close to being majority-Serb. You would probably get a Serbian counterpart to the Arbëreshë. An ethnic and linguistic minority living in Italy that would more or less assimilated with the general population.
It's doesn't really fit the OP, but we were discussing something similar with Basileus Giorgios : without Islam in Eastern Mediterranean, we could see the use of Sclavenes as auxiliaries/laeti equivalent in Italy, as it happened IOTL.
A large use enough could make them forging Italo-Slavs principalities or entities (hugely Romanized, eventually) in Southern and Adriatic Italy.
Not a Southern Italy Serbia, but I'd say it's close enough from what could be plausibily reached.
A large use enough could make them forging Italo-Slavs principalities or entities (hugely Romanized, eventually) in Southern and Adriatic Italy.
Not a Southern Italy Serbia, but I'd say it's close enough from what could be plausibily reached.
There were several Serbian communities in southern Italy (mostly in Apulia and to some extent in Molise); created in the XV century by refugees fleeing the Ottoman Empire. But they weren't nearly big enough to constitute a potential majority.
Some kind of a Roman resettlement might really be your best bet.
Some kind of a Roman resettlement might really be your best bet.
Lord Protector
Banned
Is there no chance the serb refugees could simply conquer the area?
I mean there were active pirates in the adriatic which coupled with ragusa and venice wanting them gone as soon as possible out of their territory could transport them to south italy.
Once there we would have tens of thousands of battle hardened veterans going up against some nobles with relatively inexpirienced armies,all in all i think they would have a fair chance to smash their way to power provided nobody to strong payed much attention.
They did have large scale expirience of raiding and guerilla warfare as well as pitched battles after having battled the ottomans for centuries,something the italians surely lacked.
If the habsburgs block them from going further north then its their best option apart from sitting on the ottomans border.
I mean there were active pirates in the adriatic which coupled with ragusa and venice wanting them gone as soon as possible out of their territory could transport them to south italy.
Once there we would have tens of thousands of battle hardened veterans going up against some nobles with relatively inexpirienced armies,all in all i think they would have a fair chance to smash their way to power provided nobody to strong payed much attention.
They did have large scale expirience of raiding and guerilla warfare as well as pitched battles after having battled the ottomans for centuries,something the italians surely lacked.
If the habsburgs block them from going further north then its their best option apart from sitting on the ottomans border.
Southern Italy is highly populated, even in the middle ages. Even if you get a few thousand Serbian warriors over the Adriatic, it's not going to be enough.
Lord Protector
Banned
Still,italy isnt exactly alien to fragmentation or coup detas during that period.
Its perfectly possible they could carve out some territory on the peninsula masquerading as liberators,given their desperation they would probably be willing to grant the population mostly anything they wanted,and given how impoverished they were they couldnt be worse than the present nobles.
All they would need to do is get rid of the top dogs and their personal retinues,perfectly within their capability since the habsburgs felt them millitarily capable enough to have settled them in the frontier in the first place to fight off ottoman incursions.
Any settlement of Serbs in Italy in the Early Middle Ages would probably over time disappear and forget their heritage to become Italians. But if settled later...there is a Croat minority in Molise now. They fled before the Ottomans and settled there and still retain their culture and language. Although it's a small community and I guess they have become quite different from the Croats in Croatia. Something similar wuth Serbia would be plausible (though thry were much less sea-oriented, there could be a way to sail there, if not all at once, thrn gradually over a decade). It won't make a southern Italy dominated by Serbs, but IMO it is as close as one can get
Lord Protector
Banned
I dont think the serbs would be in major danger of assimilation.
First of all they are orthodox christians and even in the habsburg monarchy they utterly refused to convert,with that we can ditch any chance of them becoming normal italians.
Also it wouldnt be a small settlement,during their great migration there were tens if not hundreds of thousands of them fleeing ottoman persecution,could easily settle a reasonable area to establish a foothold and not be assimilated.
First of all they are orthodox christians and even in the habsburg monarchy they utterly refused to convert,with that we can ditch any chance of them becoming normal italians.
Also it wouldnt be a small settlement,during their great migration there were tens if not hundreds of thousands of them fleeing ottoman persecution,could easily settle a reasonable area to establish a foothold and not be assimilated.
Pretty darn difficult. Next door to impossible.
My best effort? The Byzantine Empire takes and holds southern Italy (which it had for a while). Turks or Arabs take most of Anatolia, causing the Byzantines to focus on the Balkans. But somehow the Empire survives. ??And still manages to keep southern Italy??? (That's tough)
A dynastic marriage unites the rump Byzantine Empire with the Serbian state. It is officially still Byzantine ('the Roman Empire'), but ethnically it is plurality Serb, majority South Slav.
Somehow, this effectively Serbian empire holds together and is able to hold (?or retake?) southern Italy, and Serbian becomes the normal language of Empire (OK, so the most official documents are still in Greek, but most administration is in Serbian).
Due to immigration and assimilation, the southern Italians slowly become 'Serbian'.
Note: this 'Serbian' will be a rather different language and ethnicity from OTL. It probably has massive numbers of Greek loanwords, and sizable numbers of Italian/Latin/Romanian loanwords, as well. Given this empire likely absorbed Bulgaria, it might be that the language shifted that way a bit, too.
Basically, such a 'Serbia' would hold most of the Balkans and southern Italy.
My best effort? The Byzantine Empire takes and holds southern Italy (which it had for a while). Turks or Arabs take most of Anatolia, causing the Byzantines to focus on the Balkans. But somehow the Empire survives. ??And still manages to keep southern Italy??? (That's tough)
A dynastic marriage unites the rump Byzantine Empire with the Serbian state. It is officially still Byzantine ('the Roman Empire'), but ethnically it is plurality Serb, majority South Slav.
Somehow, this effectively Serbian empire holds together and is able to hold (?or retake?) southern Italy, and Serbian becomes the normal language of Empire (OK, so the most official documents are still in Greek, but most administration is in Serbian).
Due to immigration and assimilation, the southern Italians slowly become 'Serbian'.
Note: this 'Serbian' will be a rather different language and ethnicity from OTL. It probably has massive numbers of Greek loanwords, and sizable numbers of Italian/Latin/Romanian loanwords, as well. Given this empire likely absorbed Bulgaria, it might be that the language shifted that way a bit, too.
Basically, such a 'Serbia' would hold most of the Balkans and southern Italy.
yes, but Serbs mostly escaped west, into Croatia and Bosnia or north into Hungary. They had no sea access, much less ships to get them to Italy which is why not so many would be able to get there. That means a small community in some rural area, further away inland probably. And yes, they were Orthodox but I see them ending up similar to the Griko in south Italy, probably even smaller in numbers
Lord Protector
Banned
Thats why i mentioned the ragusans and venice.
If the habsburgs block their path they are basically stuck in dalmatia and around ragusa.
It could be possible the venecians and ragusans offer to transport them to south italy to get rid of them,that way they lose tens of thousands of troublesome refugees and dont have to worry about serious retaliation from south italy.
The basic idea is that the habsburgs decide to be catholic zealots and it all goes by itself after that.
Lord Protector
Banned
The only way i see is a serbian coup replacing the rulers of naples.
Then we can have them slowly influence the culture of their subjects who might not be oposed to the idea of priests being allowed to marry and not bothering with some of the nonsense that caused the reformation.
The refugeese also had a good deal of nobility and priests among them so they have the basic foundations of a kingdom already awaiting positions of power.
Provided the other larger catholic nations are either to occupied with other things or not interested enough such a serbian kingdom could easily survive with no real local enemies,as long as someone like spain or austria doesnt try to destroy them.
Maybe the pope could even tolerate them if he thinks the ottomans are dangerous enough and might try to invade italy,bunch of expirienced semi-heretics is a better defense than nothing.
The Adriatic pirates were Croats, not Serbs.
The migrations happened on foot. Here you imagine "tens of thousands of hardened warriors" being transported by ship across the Adriatic. Have you any idea of the immense effort and expense that would be involved? The only comparison would be the Fourth Crusade (which transported only warriors, btw, not dependants): it took almost two years for Venice to build up a suitable fleet, and they had practically to reduce to a minimum (and at time completely stop) sea trade. That was a Crusade, and the crusaders promised to defray expenses. Who is going to make such an effort to relocate Serbs to Southern Italy (where the kings of Naples would certainly be less than appreciative of the idea)?
You are right. And this about a serbian coup is just not plausible. And like I said, they could possibly migrate, but over a couple decades and not many of them, a few thousand at best due to the problems of transport. And you have to find a good reason for it since the Neapolitan king wouldn't have too much interest and why eould the venetians send them away. They won't get any profit and it's more useful to keep them in Dalmatia. Like all other refugees (Croats etc.) from the inland, they mostly settled in the hinterlands of the Dalmatian cities, doing some agriculture, keeping sheeps and other cattle. Some traded with salt, wool and other things between the muslims and the Dalmatian cities (Ragusa, Split, Zara...). They were middlemen and helped Venetians make more money. Oh and they used to fight often against the Ottoman raiders so it wouldn't be a good idea to send them all away.
Lord Protector
Banned
I was working off the example where the venetians managed to transport the ottomans saving them from timurs hordes,sure the adriatic is bigger than the bosporus but only slightly so.
As for settleing them in dalmatia,the habsburgs originaly gave them most of the land in the frontier in return for service,while venice could do something similair it never seemed like they cared enough about the inland to even bother developing it,even with the habsburgs giving them mostly a free hand in border defense there still were roads and forts being built to make it more defendable.
If the serbs turn into venetian foot soldiers could it improve their millitary record in italy since they wouldnt need the condotierri?
Anyways other than them conquering naples i see no way to get a serbian south italy.
Sure the king of naples would be pissed but i doubt either ragusa or venice had much to fear from him,as for the benefit they get from it,i dont know,i just figured getting rid of thousands of refugees clinging to your port cities walls demanding entry and help would be enough,does venice have the capability to reasonably settle the people thou,i mean give them land,cattle,some pay etc?
The original millitary frontier was as large as all of dalmatia when taken in totality.
As for settleing them in dalmatia,the habsburgs originaly gave them most of the land in the frontier in return for service,while venice could do something similair it never seemed like they cared enough about the inland to even bother developing it,even with the habsburgs giving them mostly a free hand in border defense there still were roads and forts being built to make it more defendable.
If the serbs turn into venetian foot soldiers could it improve their millitary record in italy since they wouldnt need the condotierri?
Anyways other than them conquering naples i see no way to get a serbian south italy.
Sure the king of naples would be pissed but i doubt either ragusa or venice had much to fear from him,as for the benefit they get from it,i dont know,i just figured getting rid of thousands of refugees clinging to your port cities walls demanding entry and help would be enough,does venice have the capability to reasonably settle the people thou,i mean give them land,cattle,some pay etc?
The original millitary frontier was as large as all of dalmatia when taken in totality.
Well somebody has been playing EU4 quite a bit.
(for those who don't know, a common strategy as Serbia in EU4 is to, after conquering Bosnia, Ragusa and Dalmatia to fabricate a claim on provinces owned by Naples and then gradually expand into the rich Italian provinces, convert them to Orthodox and then have them (Neapolitans or w/e) become an accepted culture)
(for those who don't know, a common strategy as Serbia in EU4 is to, after conquering Bosnia, Ragusa and Dalmatia to fabricate a claim on provinces owned by Naples and then gradually expand into the rich Italian provinces, convert them to Orthodox and then have them (Neapolitans or w/e) become an accepted culture)