AHC: Plurality of American Indians in the Americas

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I'm starting thinking that this thread might have too big of a scope to really be interesting. You may ask what can be done to keep native populations higher in the Caribbean or in California, but a question about the whole of the Americas is simply too big to be answered.
 
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Yeah, I agree that delaying European discovery is not viable. Even if we do elaborate stuff to stop Portugal and Spain, eventually Europeans are going to discover the Americas by fishing too far afield. Anyways, European discovery happening later on might not even be good. Would cause bigger tech imbalance.
Some of the less populous groups, such as the Apache, and the Chichimeca are worth noting. They would hold off the conquerors for decades and centuries, but when they got finally put down, they would often be assimilated or removed quickly, because of their low population densities. Now I have two suggestions to increase the population densities of those groups, which is to spread copper-working and llamas to them. Copper working would create useful tools, and would allow them to adjust to iron-working relatively quickly when the Europeans come. Llamas would create a herder culture and would allow them to sustain higher population densities.
It would be hard to get llamas from the andes al the way to the South-western US. Bronze is much more doable.

Ok. Here's my ideas so far.

The Andeans discover metallurgy. They start using in earlier and for more utilitarian purposes. Meanwhile, the Manteños start developing boat tech. They design outrigger canoes, and use them to trade with Mesoamerica. This improves travel times and speeds up trade and contact. Andeans get corn and writing, Mesoamericans get potatoes, boats and metal. Boat tech spreads to the Caribbean, where it proves extremely useful. Trading kingdoms pop up throughout. Bronze makes hunting and fishing more efficient, increasing population. Potato increases population, and is especially popular in the more mountainous Mayan kingdoms, where the temperature is lower (potatoes like temperate climates). Increased trade also spreads writing to the Andes, the Mississippi states, and the Caribbean (which becomes very Mesoamerica-influenced, like Indian influence on SEA historically). A few hundred years before Columbus, iron is developed in Mesoamerica, and has spread to much of the "civilized world" (thought of as Mesoamerica, the Andes, the Caribbean and the Mississippi). Larger native populations mean Europeans have a tougher time in the Americas. Have lower immigration rates, less anti-indigenous governments, and Mestizos identifying as indigenous, and you got it.
 
I'm starting thinking that this thread might have too big of a scope to really be interesting. You may ask what can be done to keep native populations higher in the Caribbean or in California, but a question about the whole of the Americas is simply too big to be answered.
Not sure if I agree. I think that the scope is so big because this question would make a better TL than WI
 
Something else that should be noted in this discussion: In OTL, due to the rapid destabilization of European settler-colonialism, the Great Plains or other associated peoples never achieved a stable societal structure that included the horse. If the horse was introduced earlier and then somehow colonization/conquest was delayed significantly, there's a chance that other indigenous societies would reach not only greater levels of population, but also power.
 
People have done a good job covering some of the key cornerstones of a plurality of American Indian Americas; keeping the Europeans out of the established states of Mesoamerica and the Andes, restricting them to malarial lands, etc.

I think something people overlook with respect to New world colonialism or even European overseas expansion is how much of that motivation was driven by someone first setting the example and making it look sexy. Without Portugal's naval developments such as the creation of the caravel and the discovery of the Volto De Mar, I don't think Europeans would have been messing about past the Canaries for at least a century. Who's going to have space, motivation, and opportunity to discover what Portugal did if not Portugal? The English were busy trying to be a continental power, the Scandinavians had already done the big thing then promptly cast it aside as irrelevant, the Irish aren't in a position to do it, the French have to deal with the English before they can even consider becoming a naval power at all, and the other Iberian states were land or Mediterranean powers and focused on what they viewed as their god-given mission to their south against Islam or ambitions in the Western Mediterranean.

The idea goes the same way for Castille's adventures in the New World with conquistadors. If Spain didn't conquer not one but two New World empires and had mountains of silver to show for the effort, would other Europeans have ever thought overseas expansion was worth their while? Hell, I'd go so far as to say that if the Spanish got clapped to a man by Aztec and Cortez's entire expedition died, then the Spanish would have tucked tail and all but the craziest conquistadors would have shied away from trying anything again, maybe even from on top-down by the Spanish monarchs themselves due to it being a big waste of resources. What gold there is in the New World would have been confined to what they found in Hispaniola and what they can finagle in trade with the Mesoamericans but on far more even terms than OTL's extraction colonialism and exploitation of the local people.

If all the Spanish had to show for their efforts in the New World is a few unprofitable colonies in the Caribbean and a tenous trade relationship with the Aztecs that proves somewhat profitable but isn't the fountain of bullion from OTL, then who's really gonna care all that much to replicate them? You'll never know what you don't have unless you go for it and without motivation to go for it, Europe will never know. At best you'll see overseas exploration be seen as a thing for merchants, but having the cajones to try for military conquest goes away for a long time. And with the only profitable trade to be seen existing on the Caribbean rim, you could have attempted settlement in more hospitable lands like the Atlantic Seaboard or the Rio de La Plata not come up for ages because the initial voyages in search of trade found nothing worthwhile and these lands becoming disregarded as worthless and empty.

What I'm getting at is that people lack imagination or understanding of what drove Europeans to the New World. No one knows the results of population growth via settler colonialism, the resources they'll need for industrialization in 300 years, or the value of soft power in the modern era fueled by a shared language.

A more trade-centric mindset to the Americas, or even just butterflying an independent Portugal would wreck world history as we know it and the New World peoples would be far, far better off for it.
 
Something else that should be noted in this discussion: In OTL, due to the rapid destabilization of European settler-colonialism, the Great Plains or other associated peoples never achieved a stable societal structure that included the horse. If the horse was introduced earlier and then somehow colonization/conquest was delayed significantly, there's a chance that other indigenous societies would reach not only greater levels of population, but also power.
This really not feasible, the demographics were simply not there for natives to resist any well established European colony on the East coast.
 
Why? How could the natives be even more worse off than OTL?
There are many things that could have made native ancestry and language decline even more than OTL, for example if Iberia had more migration to the colonies, if the Paraguayan Jesuite mission was not a thing or was removed soon enough, if there were no reservations at all and native Americans in the US and Canada simply ended up being completely mixed within the population with no distinct identity.
None of those are particularly unlikely events anyway.
 
Polynesia expands earlier and regularly lands on the western coast of South America. Perhaps they use the Pacific Equatorial Countercurrent to get to the Galapagos Islands and settle them before moving east to the continent. They bring domestic animals (and therefore plagues) and iron working with them. The Americas become like Asia and Africa as far as European colonialism is concerned.
 
Polynesia expands earlier and regularly lands on the western coast of South America. Perhaps they use the Pacific Equatorial Countercurrent to get to the Galapagos Islands and settle them before moving east to the continent. They bring domestic animals (and therefore plagues) and iron working with them. The Americas become like Asia and Africa as far as European colonialism is concerned.
The Europeans colonized New Zealand and Hawaii just fine though... the Polynesians were themselves vulnerable to various Eurasian diseases, even Filipinos were.
 
I dont know enough about each area, but I know in the PNW that alot of the deaths due to multiple waves of smallpox were *intentional* - infected individuals were sent back to remote communities by European settlers without inoculation, the smallpox blankets were a real thing (it doesn't seem to have been an official policy, but it was certainly pervasive). A Dr Helmcken on Vancouver Island had a different philosophy, he inoculated all the members of the Songish people, and they then isolated on one of the southern gulf islands. While the rest of BC's native population was almost annihilated, they all survived.

So in many cases, having a larger indigenous population could come from the colonial states WANTING more indigenous people and having a policy of smallpox inoculation rather than infection.
 
For the Vikings? Land. Even a northern area like Nova Scotia or Maine is better than most of Scandinavia.

Aztecs and Incas with European technology are going to dominate their continents. The Aztecs had as much population as the rest of North America together, with iron and horses they just crush everyone around. So do the Incas
Not according to temperatures or plant hardiness zones. Maybe, physically, "most of Scandinavia", but the populated areas of Scandinavia - southern Sweden, coastal Norway and all of Denmark - are much better for farming than Maine or Nova Scotia.
 
I dont know enough about each area, but I know in the PNW that alot of the deaths due to multiple waves of smallpox were *intentional* - infected individuals were sent back to remote communities by European settlers without inoculation, A Dr Helmcken on Vancouver Island had a different philosophy, he inoculated all the members of the Songish people, and they then isolated on one of the southern gulf islands. While the rest of BC's native population was almost annihilated, they all survived.
The Songish population still declined anyway...
So in many cases, having a larger indigenous population could come from the colonial states WANTING more indigenous people and having a policy of smallpox inoculation rather than infection.
This is an unfeasible scenario and would also not really change the demographics much in the grand scheme of things, to have Europeans go around inoculating people you first need contact and trade but when that happens it is likely that diseases would spread before any mass inoculation campaign can feasibly start(in fact the region had already multiple epidemics before). At best you will have the demographic situation you had in New Zealand where something similar happened and even that is optimistic for most fertile places of north America.
the smallpox blankets were a real thing (it doesn't seem to have been an official policy, but it was certainly pervasive).
No, let's stop repeating this without actual sources, as far as I know we have 1-2 possible references of people considering it, no more than that.
 
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The Songish population still declined anyway...

This is an unfeasible scenario and would also not really change the demographics much in the grand scheme of things, to have Europeans go around inoculating people you first need contact and trade but when that happens it is likely that diseases would spread before any mass inoculation campaign can feasibly start(in fact the region had already multiple epidemics before). At best you will have the demographic situation you had in New Zealand where something similar happened and even that is optimistic for most fertile places of north America.

No, stop repeating this without actual sources, as far as I know we have 1-2 possible references of people considering it, no more than that.
I said I was talking about the PNW. We learn about it in school... check out the Wikipedia articles on the 1862 Pacific Northwest smallpox epidemic, the 1782 smallpox epidemic, the 1837 Great Plains smallpox epidemic, the Siege of Fort Pitt, or google "smallpox blankets".

The Songish did decline, but Dr Helmcken efforts only came during the last of several waves of epidemics. And First Nations are 6% of the population of BC, much higher than in the most parts of the USA.

The OP has included Mestizos, that means that most of Latin America (except Brasil, Uruguay and Argentina) does in fact have a plurality of indigenous people already.

So I was focusing on North America, where the population is presently much smaller, and there was, for a time, a deliberate policy of war against the Indigenous in the USA and generally less explicit policies in Canada, although they had the same effect.
 
With a POD in 500 AD actually, this seems to be extremely feasible, a multitude of small contacts from the Old World any number of groups that can spread Old World crops and animals but most important diseases. Reducing the mortality of these diseases then creates stronger states that survive whichever power colonizes the continent.
 
I said I was talking about the PNW. We learn about it in school... check out the Wikipedia articles on the 1862 Pacific Northwest smallpox epidemic, the 1782 smallpox epidemic, the 1837 Great Plains smallpox epidemic, the Siege of Fort Pitt, or google "smallpox blankets".
Like I said I only heard of 1 source of a guy that considered using them but we never know if he did, if you have more evidence feel free to show it.

And First Nations are 6% of the population of BC, much higher than in the most parts of the USA.
I'd argue that's more a function of the general geography, Alaska has more people than the Canadian province does as well.

The OP has included Mestizos, that means that most of Latin America (except Brasil, Uruguay and Argentina) does in fact have a plurality of indigenous people already.
Cuba, the Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico also are not plurality indigenous/mestizo(though Argentina could be considered so, it depends on how you really define Mestizo), also he only included Mestizos(mixed-race people) that spoke native languages, not all of them.

So I was focusing on North America, where the population is presently much smaller, and there was, for a time, a deliberate policy of war against the Indigenous in the USA and generally less explicit policies in Canada, although they had the same effect.
Not sure what you mean by policy of war, but if you mean the settlers wanted to take land from the natives for themselves and ultimately did so, that was the case everywhere in the Americas where there was valuable land to take.
 
The problem with the idea of a Vinland colony as a terminus of a corridor is that I am not sure how it can fulfill that role.

* Vinland was a poor outpost of a poor Greenland colony that ended up emptying out to Iceland and perhaps even continental Europe when conditions changed (the climate got worse and Greenland's walrus tusk exports less valuable). At the very least, you would need to change the politics of the Norse world to make Vinland and Greenland viable, perhaps making these colonies prestige items.
* Vinland may not be in a position to introduce native populations to Eurasian diseases. Greenland, for instance, may have been quarantined from the Black Death by the week-long trip necessary to cross there from Iceland. The Greenlanders may have been vulnerable in their own right.
* Vinland may not be connecting with locals. Quite apart from the reports we have from the sagas, the indigenous populations nearest Vinland would be relatively small in number and relatively low-tech. It would plausibly take centuries for innovations to make it to areas like the Mississippi, never mind Mexico.
 
With a POD in 500 AD actually, this seems to be extremely feasible, a multitude of small contacts from the Old World any number of groups that can spread Old World crops and animals but most important diseases. Reducing the mortality of these diseases then creates stronger states that survive whichever power colonizes the continent.
It's really not feasible, the 3 most likely population to come more into contact with the Americas than IOTL were Eastern Siberians, Polynesians and Norse-Insular Celts and all of those populations didn't carry the bulk of the diseases, were themselves isolated and were in most cases going to either only contact the most peripherical of the natives(at least the Europeans and Siberians) or were relying on long distance sporadic contact at best.
 
It's really not feasible, the 3 most likely population to come more into contact with the Americas than IOTL were Eastern Siberians, Polynesians and Norse-Insular Celts and all of those populations didn't carry the bulk of the diseases, were themselves isolated and were in most cases going to either only contact the most peripherical of the natives(at least the Europeans and Siberians) or were relying on long distance sporadic contact at best.
Right but what if the networks were continuous. What if perhaps over an extended period of time the Vikings, Polynesians, and let's say the Malinese had maintained a conduit of trade for diseases to transfer into the Americas. It can be disrupted or ended later via a conflict in their home continent. Or not even diseases but simply livestock that could act as a vector for disease as it spreads throughout the Americas.

It's multifaceted. Firstly it's the disease itself being transferred, second, it's the domesticated animals that can build and develop native societies more, and thirdly it's the stronger states that can withstand whichever nation formally colonizes it.

With how epidemiology works I definitely could see higher immunity levels among the Native Americans.
 
Right but what if the networks were continuous. What if perhaps over an extended period of time the Vikings, Polynesians, and let's say the Malinese had maintained a conduit of trade for diseases to transfer into the Americas.
You have to seriously change a lot of things for that to even begin to be possible, it's not a likely scenario at all even in theory.

It can be disrupted or ended later via a conflict in their home continent. Or not even diseases but simply livestock that could act as a vector for disease as it spreads throughout the Americas.
There is literally not enough time for this to happen, OTL the Europeans didn't spread diseases to all of North America that quickly even with animals running around.

It's multifaceted. Firstly it's the disease itself being transferred, second, it's the domesticated animals that can build and develop native societies more, and thirdly it's the stronger states that can withstand whichever nation formally colonizes it.
Again there is not enough time with a 500 POD to first get the people there, to then transfer the animals and then have the animals actually spread around. Look at how much time it took OTL for various animals to spread around in the old world, not mere centuries.

With how epidemiology works I definitely could see higher immunity levels among the Native Americans.
Empirically we know of Icelanders, Polynesians and Siberians reacted to strong contact with (other) Eurasians, here you have even more bottlenecks applied to those populations to have them reach the Americas.
 
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