Is this plausible or ASB: During the settlement of Iceland, it comes to be believed that it's the middle point between to large landmass and so a foolhardy expedition sets sail southwest from the western coast and arriving at the Grand banks just before their stocks run out and spotting land from there?
AHC/Plausibility Check, Iceland to Vinland without Greenland
- Thread starter Tairo
- Start date
In OTL according to the sagas Bjarni Herjolfsson and/or Leif Eiriksson discovered Vinland directly without going via Greenland. Indeed they were headed for Greenland and got blown off course. But all subsequent expeditions went in the reverse direction, from Greenland following the coasts southwards. No one, for the next five hundred years, was foolhardy enough to deliberately attempt a direct sailing from Iceland. And why would they, when it was much safer to follow the coasts as far as possible, even if you have to go north up the Greenland coast to begin with? Only with improved craft did west Europeans start sailing directly to the Grand Banks.
So why do Icelanders start to think there might be a vast landmass to the west? And even if they do, it's more logical to attemt to reach it via Greenland, which they already know about. This expedition to the south-west is certainly foolhardy, even by Norse standards, unless they think there's something quite close in that direction. No, this looks very much like ASB, I'm afraid.
So why do Icelanders start to think there might be a vast landmass to the west? And even if they do, it's more logical to attemt to reach it via Greenland, which they already know about. This expedition to the south-west is certainly foolhardy, even by Norse standards, unless they think there's something quite close in that direction. No, this looks very much like ASB, I'm afraid.
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Ah thanks. The Icelanders would have come to believe in a western landmass with a reasoning of "four winds, four lands" which I'll admit isn't that plausible. I've found conflicting info on whether or not Knarrs were capable of north/west atlantic voyages while searching for a way of going from West Iceland to Avalon Peninsula.
Indeed, if you look at a map, it's quite difficult to avoid Greenland altogrther. If you want to go a dangerous direct route, perhaps the best way is to follow the east coast of Greenland - south westwards! - to Herjolfsness, the first settlement round Cape Farvel, where you take on fresh supplies, and then, instead of following the west Greenland coast north, you strike out directly west or south west across the Labrador Sea, and maybe strike either Markland (Labrador) or Vinland (Newfoundland). I'm not sure how possible this is with ocean currents and prevailing winds - perhaps someone can enlighten? Certainly much more risky than going via the west greenland coast and Helluland._
Its not ASB, but it is a poor decision for any captain. Water is going to be your big limiter on such a trip. Getting it from icebergs is not impossible but dangerous in the extreme. A diversion to southern Greenland is a small diversion, but adds much in terms of cargo and safety.
The direct trip was made, and the Norse had many types and sizes of ships for different purposes. If the route had anything to recommend it, they would have adapted. But there is no advantage to it and considerable disadvantage.
The direct trip was made, and the Norse had many types and sizes of ships for different purposes. If the route had anything to recommend it, they would have adapted. But there is no advantage to it and considerable disadvantage.
I doesn't really need to be believed, simply be attempted. Knowing Greenland was there was a big deal, but if we presume we've got Iceland-Greenland-Vinland already, there is some value in being able to make the passage from Iceland-Vinland directly. Heck, there is plenty of justification to be interested in making the trip from Britain and Ireland, rather than Iceland at all. (And as mentioned, Vinland was found by accident in exactly the way the OP wants)
So you have a motivation already, proof it can be done, a shorter route, direct, but a single leg. A leg of 3,262 km. Yikes. So we need to have larger craft. Now the Norse have seen bigger ships in their raids in the Med, that construction isn't always good, but the idea of building bigger to make the journey isn't ASB, you just need the motivation.
So lets go for one, a Cnut the Great PoD, or rather his sone, Harthacnut. If he lives rather than has a stroke at a wedding, we have the third successive ruler of the North Sea Empire. As to how united it is, is for debate, but it does have relevance. As a Thallassocracy, it needs many, large ships, and considering the realms tumultuous nature, a place for exile isn't bad, but a place to expand to, establish loyal (if distant) families, to exile disloyal families, and generally provide a place to clean shop, is very useful. The people provide the manpower for Vinland to survive, and the North Sea Empire has the incentive for the ships and shipping that can transport the large quantities of goods with the supplies involved - as they need it in the North Sea for large-volume transport anyway.
So yeah, if you want people to do this, you need the motivation, and the likelihood is that it'll be political rather than purely economic. After conquering the rest of Britain and Ireland, Europe is mostly out of bounds. Sweden is likely, as is the Baltics, but so is Vinland. And as the trip via Greenland becomes more dangerous, being able to sail from further south directly will help them, and allow them to interact with the peoples of North America, and expand the trade network further.
So you have a motivation already, proof it can be done, a shorter route, direct, but a single leg. A leg of 3,262 km. Yikes. So we need to have larger craft. Now the Norse have seen bigger ships in their raids in the Med, that construction isn't always good, but the idea of building bigger to make the journey isn't ASB, you just need the motivation.
So lets go for one, a Cnut the Great PoD, or rather his sone, Harthacnut. If he lives rather than has a stroke at a wedding, we have the third successive ruler of the North Sea Empire. As to how united it is, is for debate, but it does have relevance. As a Thallassocracy, it needs many, large ships, and considering the realms tumultuous nature, a place for exile isn't bad, but a place to expand to, establish loyal (if distant) families, to exile disloyal families, and generally provide a place to clean shop, is very useful. The people provide the manpower for Vinland to survive, and the North Sea Empire has the incentive for the ships and shipping that can transport the large quantities of goods with the supplies involved - as they need it in the North Sea for large-volume transport anyway.
So yeah, if you want people to do this, you need the motivation, and the likelihood is that it'll be political rather than purely economic. After conquering the rest of Britain and Ireland, Europe is mostly out of bounds. Sweden is likely, as is the Baltics, but so is Vinland. And as the trip via Greenland becomes more dangerous, being able to sail from further south directly will help them, and allow them to interact with the peoples of North America, and expand the trade network further.
New, hopefully more readable map with planned journeys for the TL.
I had ruled Cnut as i was wanting an earlier Norse discovery of Vinland that kept the traditional tings allowing both it and Iceland to be kept independent of either Norway or Denmark later in the timeline although Cnut being responsible for keeping OTL Vinland populated was something I hadn't considered.
You don't really need desalination, the ships can carry the water they need. The problem is that carrying that much water will cut the available space for cargo a lot. The small sidetrip to Greenland for water will increase the space you have available for cargo a lot. Additionally, the Greenlanders were always in need of things and luxuries, and produced horn and ivory, two high-value, low-volume products.
You'd really need a good reason for them to avoid Greenland.
A trip from Ireland or Great Britain is different. Greenland is further off the course of such a trip, so maybe. I think you'd need more activity in the area before anyone were interested enough to try something that risky though.
Maybe if Eric the Red got blown off course and lands in Vinland instead of Greenland, thats where he starts his colony. Or the little ice age comes in a bit early, and ice makes the seas around Greenland much more dangerous, whiel there is a going colony trading from Vinland.
You'd really need a good reason for them to avoid Greenland.
A trip from Ireland or Great Britain is different. Greenland is further off the course of such a trip, so maybe. I think you'd need more activity in the area before anyone were interested enough to try something that risky though.
Maybe if Eric the Red got blown off course and lands in Vinland instead of Greenland, thats where he starts his colony. Or the little ice age comes in a bit early, and ice makes the seas around Greenland much more dangerous, whiel there is a going colony trading from Vinland.
New, hopefully more readable map with planned journeys for the TL.
I had ruled Cnut as i was wanting an earlier Norse discovery of Vinland that kept the traditional tings allowing both it and Iceland to be kept independent of either Norway or Denmark later in the timeline although Cnut being responsible for keeping OTL Vinland populated was something I hadn't considered.
I have to say I don't think this map is as good as your previous one. It looks a bit like two different projections have been combined on the one map (I don't know if that's the case). It makes it look as though Greenland lies entirely to the north of Iceland, and that they had to go northwards to reach it, which is significantly not the case. The southern cone of Greenland extends to the south of Iceland; the most southerly point, Cape Farewell (Kap Farvel) is on the same latitude as St Petersburg, and just fractionally north of Oslo and the Shetland Isles. The map also makes it look as if you go due west from Iceland to Newfoundland, which makes it look logical. In fact it's south-west; if you deviate westwards you hit Greenland anyway, while if you deviate southwards you're probably in danger of overshooting and missing Newfoundland altogether.
BTW did you know that there were islands between Iceland and Greenland at this time (Gunnbjorn's Skerries)? They would have made sailing from Iceland to Greenland easier. Apparently they were destroyed in a volcanic eruption about 1456. I've never seen them mentioned by anyone on this site.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunnbjörn's_skerries.
Ah, that's just a map I nabbed of wikipedia, so multiple projections onto a single map is possible. You'll hopefully note that I specified southwest rather than west in my original post! My TL has Greenland hugging atm rather than an idiot trying a direct route. Now that you've mentioned it, I have no idea what projection that is meant to be, it's clearly not Mercator.
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It occurs to me that if all you need is one captain to do the trip, thats not so difficult. Someone is going to Vinland and he has a feud with an powerful man in Greenland.
Yeah, I just need one captain do follow the route, most likely out of spite for someone as you say, and then for him to pass that route on to other sailors either on Iceland or Vinland itself. I don't envision the direct route replacing the Iceland-Greenland-Vinland route just being well known.