AHC: Peerless Air Ministry

Reader mode
AlanJWhite

AlanJWhite

Driftless said:
When the Alternate parachute forces discussion comes up on this site, I always think of this scene from the "Longest Day"
Click to expand...

Interesting but atypical Hollywood simplification

Operation Deadstick was an AIRBORNE op ... but NOT initially a parachute drop

The first wave was a GLIDER assault
using 1.5 companies from the Ox & Bucks (our local regiment) + some sappers + the pilots (also trained as infantry)
They landed virtually on top of the targets at 00:18 & captured BOTH the Pegasus (canal) and Horsa (River) bridges intact
and then laid out marked dropped zones for one company of 7 Para ( more were planned in later drops)

Even so the paradrop was scattered to hell and gone ... the Para commamder arrived with just one man at 00:52
and only 100 or so made it to the bridges before dawn though most got there by around noon
allowing the British to clear both banks.

The commandos landed at Sword sometime after 0700 but only arrived at 13:40 followed by a handful of British tanks
Final relief was around 21:00 by the Warwicks
Howard eventually relinquished command around 23:59

Truly the longest day
 
Last edited:
Driftless

Driftless

Donor
AlanJWhite said:
Interesting but atypical Hollywood simplification

Operation Deadstick was an AIRBORNE op ... but NOT initially a parachute drop

The first wave was a GLIDER assault
using 1.5 companies from the Ox & Bucks (our local regiment) + some sappers + the pilots (also trained as infantry)
They landed virtually on top of the targets at 00:18 & captured BOTH the Pegasus (canal) and Horsa (River) bridges intact
and then laid out marked dropped zones for one company of 7 Para ( more were planned in later drops)

Even so the paradrop was scattered to hell and gone ... the Para commamder arrived with just one man at 00:52
and only 100 or so made it to the bridges before dawn though most got there by around noon
allowing the British to clear both banks.

The commandos landed at Sword sometime after 0700 but only arrived at 13:40 followed by a handful of British tanks
Final relief was around 21:00 by the Warwicks
Howard eventually relinquished command around 23:59

Truly the longest day
Click to expand...
Valid points. I should have said airborne forces.
 

sonofpegasus

In Post 2578 the film makers have got it correct, on the left the actor playing lord Lovat has the Lovat scouts cap badge on his berry. In the Middle Todd dressed as Major Howard has the Oxford and Bucs cap badge and the unknown actor on the right has the Parachute Regiment cap badge as worn by Todd OTL.
 

Thoresby

Lawnchair Captain said:
So maybe a German airborne disaster in Crete will not affect D Day in the use of allied airborne forces so much (perhaps some missions and number of units might change) but will make sure that something like Market Garden never happens.
Click to expand...

A German disaster on it's own won't stop Market Garden. Market Garden was the result of means (the Allies finally had enough transport planes), motive (Airborne forces have consumed an enormous amount of resources and need to justify it) and opportunity (a quick route onto the North German Plain but you need ALL the bridges and the war is over by Christmas). If you want to stop Market Garden you need an Allied disaster in one of the smaller operations earlier in the war.
 

Paternas

Donor
sonofpegasus said:
For example, if ITTL there is an attempted airborne invasion of Crete in which the Germans are defeated with catastrophic casualties what then happens to the development of British and American airborne forces? How would and different allied attitude to airborne forces effect D-Day etc. How big does the snowball become ?
Click to expand...
Well there would be a lot less airborne divisions. ITTL they have succeeded in Denmark, Norway, in Eben-Emmanuel. In the Netherlands the major assault on the Hague and the air fields failed, but the smaller attempt(<1000 men) to take the Moerdijkbridges succeeded. Now ITTL a major assault on Crete fails as well.

The lesson would be that small operations up to regiment size work in coup de main operations to capture bridges, but big attacks will fail. ITTL you would still have the battle of Pegasus bridge, but no division scale airdrops. Maybe one british regiment and 2 US airborne brigades?
 
Last edited:

sonofpegasus

In 1940 OTL Churchill ordered a Brigade size airborne force to be formed. Same ITTL, even if a German airborne assault on Crete fails spectacularly, I think at least a Division size airborne unit would be created by the allies.
 

Peg Leg Pom

sonofpegasus said:
In 1940 OTL Churchill ordered a Brigade size airborne force to be formed. Same ITTL, even if a German airborne assault on Crete fails spectacularly, I think at least a Division size airborne unit would be created by the allies.
Click to expand...
However those airborne divisions formed may be purely administrative and only fight in smaller units rather than as a division.
 

Thoresby

Paternas said:
The lesson would be that small operations up to regiment size work in coup de main operations to capture bridges, but big attacks will fail. ITTL you would still have the battle of Pegasus bridge, but no division scale airdrops. Maybe one british regiment and 2 US airborne brigades?
Click to expand...

I really think you're overestimating the degree to which the Allies will learn from German defeats. 1940 has proved the under right circumstance airborne assaults using a combination of gliders and paratroopers works. The Allies have set up copy cat units. Those units now have officers who want to be generals and high ranking sponsors who want their decisions to be vindicated. They are self sustaining. That means they will try a series of gradually larger and more ambitious operations as confidence and capability grows. They will keep getting more ambitious until something goes horribly wrong. It doesn't matter if you're a Field Marshal, a toddler annoying a dog or a gambler at the roulette wheel, the instinct to keep trying this new thing until you encounter a negative reaction is deep wired into human nature.
 

sonofpegasus

Thoresby said:
It doesn't matter if you're a Field Marshal, a toddler annoying a dog or a gambler at the roulette wheel, the instinct to keep trying this new thing until you encounter a negative reaction is deep wired into human nature.
Click to expand...
Ah! so that is why I am still writing TTL after three years!!!!!
 

Paternas

Donor
Thoresby said:
The Allies have set up copy cat units. Those units now have officers who want to be generals and high ranking sponsors who want their decisions to be vindicated. They are self sustaining.
Click to expand...
Not really at this point. OTL the British approved 2 parachute briagades and 10000 glider troops on 31 May 1941. The US formations were not set up until after Pearl harbor. Given a disaster in Crete it does not seem unlikely to me that at least the scale will be cut back. ITTL the British Army and RAF is probably already working on the proposal to be send to the Chiefs-of-Staffs. However if the Germans just got masssacred on Crete either they will probably rework the proposal.
 
Last edited:

Thoresby

Paternas said:
Not really at this point. OTL the British approved 2 parachute briagades and 10000 glider troops on 31 May 1941. The US formations were not set up until after Pearl harbor. Given a disaster in Crete it does not seem unlikely to me that at least the scale will be cut back. ITTL the British Army and RAF is probably already working on the proposal to be send to the Chiefs-of-Staffs. However if the Germans just got masssacred on Crete either they will probably rework the proposal.
Click to expand...

That's not whole story, Churchill told told the Army to start investigating airborne forces after France and in June 1940 No. 2 Commando became the first British parachute unit, it then became No. 11 Special Air Service Battalion under which name it launched Operation COLOSSUS in February '41 (has that happened in this TL?) before becoming 1st Battalion, Parachute Regiment in September '41. You already have high profile and important people like Dill and Churchill interested in the airborne concept. A high profile German disaster might slow things on the ground troops side, maybe you only get one parachute brigade authorised in May but the prime constraint for all airborne forces was always aircraft rather than soldiers and the motivation to build those won't be altered at all.
I don't know the history of US airborne forces but if the Germans and the British both have a capability, I can't see the US not deciding to have the biggest and most lavishly funded version in the world.
 

vizzer

Another advantage of smaller airborne forces - they are not creaming off as many personnel who would be leaders in the conventional units they left behind.
IIRC E.g. the US Parachutist requirements were only a little below that required for pilot training.
 

Thoresby

Sorry I don't think I was clear, I don't think you'll see smaller airborne forces in 1945, that's largely a function of theoretical airlift capacity plus some margin. What you might see is the British build up, which was way ahead of transport aircraft availability, be slightly delayed. I doubt US plans would be changed at all
 

sonofpegasus

Regarding operation Deadstick, the pilots of the gliders were from the Glider Pilot regiment and were first and foremost soldiers who volunteered to train as glider pilots.
They were highly skilled and motivated both as pilots and soldiers, on the ground this made them a valuable part of the fighting force.
 

sonofpegasus

Ash's Boomstick, thank you for posting the story so far. i am not sure how good a read it makes. I fear a lot of editing and rewriting would be needed.
 
Reader mode
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top
Top