AHC: Non-expansionist Japan

[abc123]

So, how can we get a non-expansionist Japan? Meaning:

- Japan that doesen't want to take anything else except Ryu Kyu, Kuriles and Sahalin?
- Japan that want's to help other Asian countries to keep their freedom from Europeans ( China, Korea, Thailand ) or to gain it ( Phillipines etc. )

 

[schai]

Without Meiji Restoration, Japan would be a closed country and would not be an expansionist. However, it also means that Japan would not be able to help others in Asia. It might not even be able to prevent the colonization of Japan by Russian or American.

 

[Imperial Inkstand-filler]

This is admittedly post-1900, but it's a period of time you can draw inspiration from. I've always found the period of "Taisho Democracy" to be a particularly fascinating one. Long story short, between an oligarchic Meiji period and militaristic Showa period, we have a brief interlude in the 20s that's liberal, cosmopolitan, and consumerist.

A non-expansionist Japan might have to come through with a stronger Qing Dynasty. Perhaps an alternate Gaspin Coup of 1882 could result in an earlier, pro-Japanese Korea, which forces the Qing to double down and modernize? Without the pressure of the Russians, British, and Americans breathing down East Asia's neck, the Japanese may be less inclined to push for their own Pan-Asianist goals. Similarly, an earlier placement of Japan, Korea, and China on equal footing with the Europeans (at least within the theater of East Asia) may forestall Japanese expansionism. Bear in mind that much of the early Japanese expansion (Korea, Port Arthur, Sakhalin) was, in part, a reaction to perceived European threats to Japanese (and East Asian) independence. Should there be a less pressing threat of European imperialism, I imagine the urgency of a Pan-Asian union (and, later, a Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere) would be drastically reduced.

 

[Fredrick II Barbarossa]

not really taisho era was dominated by the oligarchy, it is simmpply nostalgia that paints the period in a good light what with the earthquakes, assasinations, labour issues, and growth of suppression of non state shinto cults. Though it id dof course have positive aspects and even durng this period Japan was expnasionst given the numerous ties the state had with warlords in Manchuria and economic interests in Northern China and Korea.

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

Change the circumstances of Japan's opening by the Black Ships. It's long been argued that the violent way that its ports were forced open was what drove militarism (through the desire not to be left vulnerable again) and the corresponding drive to expand (not point in a military if you're not going to use it).

 

[abc123]

Yeah, I forgot to say that the POD can't be after First Sino-Japanese War...

 

[Fredrick II Barbarossa]

Yeah, I forgot to say that the POD can't be after First Sino-Japanese War...

impossile economic, social, poltiical, rascist, and strategic interests by that point had already become entrenched among the Japanese elite. Japan was going to expand in some direction it was a matter of when not if.

 

[abc123]

impossile economic, social, poltiical, rascist, and strategic interests by that point had already become entrenched among the Japanese elite. Japan was going to expand in some direction it was a matter of when not if.

Impossible? So, having Japan that actually believes in "Asia to Asians" ( not "Asia to Japanese" ) is impossible?

 

[Grand Prince Paul II.]

Impossible? So, having Japan that actually believes in "Asia to Asians" ( not "Asia to Japanese" ) is impossible?

You can have Japan believe in "Asia for Asians", but it requires the failure of (early) Japanese Imperialism.

 

[abc123]

You can have Japan believe in "Asia for Asians", but it requires the failure of (early) Japanese Imperialism.

Yes, possible. So, we have to have Japan that realises that they will never be able to outcompete the West in their own game ( imperialism ) so they can try to ruin their game ( Asis to Asians ).

 

[Legofan4]

Yes, possible. So, we have to have Japan that realises that they will never be able to outcompete the West in their own game ( imperialism ) so they can try to ruin their game ( Asis to Asians ).

Except to be able to ruin the game so to speak they have to have enough power to actually contest one of the western powers control over an area. And i dont see how they can build up a powerful military without some expansion to acquire resources that Japan doesn't have in the home islands.

 

[GlobalHumanism]

Here's why I'd personally say it's too ASB.

The seeds of Japanese Imperialism were sown during the Edo period were xenophobia and etho-exceptionalism were stimulated in the home islands. (In fact, even natives of the Ryuku Islands were treated like second class citizens compared to those born on the archipelago)

Once the US opened up the ports by force, rather than shattering these ethno-centric traditions, it created a violent reaction from within them via ultra-nationalist secret societies that guided japanese policy from the shadows.

To do what your proposing would call for a PoD prior to Edo.

 

[GohanLSSJ2]

Here's why I'd personally say it's too ASB.

The seeds of Japanese Imperialism were sown during the Edo period were xenophobia and etho-exceptionalism were stimulated in the home islands. (In fact, even natives of the Ryuku Islands were treated like second class citizens compared to those born on the archipelago)

Once the US opened up the ports by force, rather than shattering these ethno-centric traditions, it created a violent reaction from within them via ultra-nationalist secret societies that guided japanese policy from the shadows.

To do what your proposing would call for a PoD prior to Edo.

So... The whole mess that lead to the atrocities of WWII and the nuking of Japan an inevitability?

 

[mlp]

So... The whole mess that lead to the atrocities of WWII and the nuking of Japan an inevitability?

It makes Japanese expansionism and ultranationalism inevitable. Whether or not things change depends on the West's TTL attitude towards racism and/or its technological cevelopment.

 

[Green Painting]

Japan loses the war with Qing Empire (the so-called First Sino-Japanese War). It was the war that justified the unpopular reforms of Meiji Restoration, as well as the militarist tendencies of the Meiji government.

Had Japan lost the war, internal contradictions would rift apart the ongoing reforms, and if a new regime rose, it would be less trigger happy than the previous one.

 

[MagicalRabbit]

So, how can we get a non-expansionist Japan? Meaning:

- Japan that doesen't want to take anything else except Ryu Kyu, Kuriles and Sahalin?
- Japan that want's to help other Asian countries to keep their freedom from Europeans ( China, Korea, Thailand ) or to gain it ( Phillipines etc. )

What about having some European Great Power successfully conquer and colonize Japan early enough, though?

Also, alternatively, maybe having Kublai Khan live a bit longer and launch a third Mongol invasion of Japan might work for this. After all, you know the old saying that says that the third time is the charm!

 

[MagicalRabbit]

Had Japan lost the war, internal contradictions would rift apart the ongoing reforms, and if a new regime rose, it would be less trigger happy than the previous one.

Would it also be less pro-reform that the previous one, though?

 

[Fredrick II Barbarossa]

What about having some European Great Power successfully conquer and colonize Japan early enough, though?

Also, alternatively, maybe having Kublai Khan live a bit longer and launch a third Mongol invasion of Japan might work for this. After all, you know the old saying that says that the third time is the charm!

could work, simpler POD Hideyoshi does not come to power. Imjin is averted. Hell I think a stronger Ashikaga shogunate would do the trick.